Wonder how much money he spent
Wonder how much money he spent on this thing, to protest spending money.
(Anti-health care reform protester)
At least a couple bucks more than these guys.
Picture by: dunno source Caption by: Grimmiekins via Advanced Lol Builder
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*breaks out $hit$torm resistant poncho, rubber boots, and umbrella*
Tut tut. Looks like flames.
*holds Bic lighter over head*
I’m just going to walk away from this whole post. It’s Friday and I just want to get a liquid start to my weekend. But I will miss y’all.
*blows kisses and skips out of PK”
really i was just trying to get a number estimation that’s all, i want a cool tripped out hearse too and want to know what it would set me back, why are all you people fighting?
Did you expect anything less?
PEOPLE, PUT THE TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS DOWN!
PLEASE CEASE THE RIOT!
i just want a number of how much it cost..thats it…i want a hearse with cool decals , not the same decals but decals none the less.
i want to drive into old folks parks ( i live in Florida , they are all over )
wearing a black suit go to their window and tap on the glass, telling them its time to go….THATS IT
You are a sick, twisted man. I knew there was a reason we got along. Can I ride shot gun?
Mina you can ride in the coffin, pop out and go BOO
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*hugs Grimmiekins*
You could get a job on the Obama death panels!
He said he was going to create more jobs…
**puts duck tape over n00bs mouth and throws in a burlap sack** BAD, Bad n00b ruining a perfectly good funny.
Awww, I thought it was funny….
I hate Obama as much as the next conservative/ moderate however we don’t need to Troll on that. All you do is feed the machine and make our conservative arguements more invalid.
Plus there’s no such thing as death panels, that is a conservative propaganda. Just state the truth, say that surgeries and medical care will be more scrutinized under a beuracratic system, which could have the opposite effect that the liberals want, people still going without the appropriate medical attention.
But, but, I put in a smiley face. I know there’s no such thing, that’s why I used it in a joke, someone else mentioned death panels before me and it is a hearse after all, why can’t I?! Whhaaaaaaaaaaa!!
Fine since you put in smiley face. Just don’t feed the Donkies!!!
Wouldn’t dream of it!
Don’t feel too bad n00bs, I liked your joke!
*froths* You damn conservatroll, how could you be so stu…huh? *someone whispers in Rando’s ear* He was kidding? *more whispers* He knows there’s no death panels? *more whispers* My fly is open? Oops. Okay, n00bs, you’re free to go…this time.
not stirring up a stink here I Like Peanut Butter, but i read the parts about the end of life care/”death panels” stuff as a way to provide those who are elderly or terminal with information regarding dnr’s, power of attny’s, informed consent and other factors so they get the care they want and is appropriate for their cases. kind of like giving anyone all information regarding abstinance, birth control, & std’s instead of abstinance only.
Oops, I first read this as ‘cremate more jobs’….
I think that’s what we’ve been doing, to look at the unemployment rate.
Buh buh buh but the job loss rate has decreased!!!
Well, you know it’s economic recovery. The big money recovers first…we all recover last.
Oh, the possibilities…
Yay, cremation is one industry that’s hard to outsource to China!
Bite your tounge! I wouldn’t put it passed someone to try!
I tried but it cost me an arm and a leg.
Really? On the same side? That’s got to suck.
Well didn’t cost me. They just took it off the “client”.
I sent my loved ones to China to be cremated, but when they came back it gave me lead poisoning. Very odd.
Dude, you are my fvcking hero. LMAO
is grimmiekins the wind beneith your wings?
He’s everything I would want to be. And I can fly higher than an eagle.
“Take these golden wings, and learn to fly again…”
“Black bird fly, black bird fly, into to the light of the dark black night!”
Oh thank God we made it back to the Beatles. That was getting scary.
What you don’t want me to stretch these golden pipes!!!
4 colours, 12 yds whit, 12 yds orange, 2 yds grey, 3 yds red most likely.
Call it 17.00 a yd so call it 493 dollars in vinyl alone (not including cutting) or $1500 total for the install and art work. If you really want the decals I or any other sign-maker can make them for you. If you want them installed you will want to go to a local guy if you have the art its a 1 day job, if you don’t… call it 3
Yes, but you also have to buy the herse too.
I think the point would be that it was *his* money that he spent, and not anyone else. Whereas Obama is looking to spend *our* money, whether we want it spent on “health care” or not.
Heaven forbid we actually give 2 flying shits about those who may be less fortunate than others. I may not agree in the form of healthcare reform at the moment, but at least I know that SOMETHING needs to change. Insurance companies are plain money robbers and the only people who don’t seem to mind are those who benefit the most from them. People who are freeloaders will always take advantage of the system, but people who genuinely need the help and benefit the most from a reform really do need this!
“Less fortunate”? Whadya mean?
I went to school, graduated, went to college, graduated, got a job (where I can get my own health care), slugged it out in crazy situations before I got to where I am today. Sure, I have had plenty of setbacks, but I chewed through them and never gave up. All while never being on welfare or government assistance.
*GASP*
That’s not “fortunate” buddy, that’s “hard work and determination”… something the collective people seem to have lost sight, if not the meaning, of.
While I agree with you, sadly not every mother and father encourage there kid to push forward. Some of the kids feel like victims cause there parents were also extremely lazy. I work with kids part-time that have parents that just don’t care anymore. There is a cultural factor that no one wants to acknowledge.
Feeling like a victim is the problem here, if you feel like a victim you will most likely be a victim.
And then you’re desperately gonna need a boobjob!
Government should pay for it too dammit!!
There’s people that rather use their savings on a boobjob than on getting healthcare.
If they have the money for it, they should be able to be stupid.
I was the laziest kid you could ever imagine… and I’m not the brightest either. (Open fire, I asked for it. ;P) I realized as I got older that I wanted to call the shots in my life, and that the only way I was going to get there is if I (and ONLY I) took the bull by the horns. I had to work my ass off (twice), sweat blood, and miss a few meals. I guess such sacrifice is something most people consider themselves above.
I live in the USA, the country with the greatest amount of opportunities in the world. And while I don’t agree with it, we all get government schooling for at least 12 years. Being born in such surroundings, if you can’t make yourself valuable enough to a company that would partially pay you with a health care plan… if you can’t do any better than bagging groceries or scooping poop in a park… then perhaps that’s nature’s way of telling you what you do or do not deserve.
Want something of worth such as a health care plan? Make yourself valuable. It’s really that simple. And if you can’t do THAT in the USA, then.. well.. then you suck.
And I don’t mean you as in “You, trainwreckchaser”… that rant was a blanket statement.
Who decides what sort of work is valuable? Why do preschool lead teachers make $10/hour in a metropolitan area where you need $15/hour to live somewhere other than your parent’s basement? Mind you, lead teachers in a preschool need a college degree.
My mother is a retired teacher. Knowing what she knows now, she’d prolly have picked a different profession. Anyone entering the education field hopefully knows what they are getting themselves into… it’s a labor of love only.
Sure, it’s important to be happy at what you do, but don’t march blindly into it.
I’m going to guess that these teachers you speak of are gov’t workers… that system is broken due to NO competition and whatnot.
And I do NOT think that teacher’s should be out of the top pay brackets. They create this country’s marrow.
Trying reading. VG said “preschool lead teachers” — preschools are almost never government. Except for YDI Headstart, which is income restricted acceptance, we have NO gov’t preschools here.
Besides, there is competition for K-12 schools (what you probably meant, but not what she meant); it’s called private schools.
BTW, sad that your mom’s a teacher, but you don’t know how to spell ‘teachers.”
Sad that you’re so stuck up that you can’t pop your head out for some oxygen once in a while. Typical response to reality is to undermine the facts with such attacks.
FYI, we DO have gov’t pre-schools here where I live. But I’m sure that matters not in your land of perfection. Oh how I beg humbly for forgiveness in my oversight, oh crowned one!!
There is no competition among public schools. At least where I live, you are TOLD where your child goes to school. Your attempt to put words in my mother’s mouth is a sad attempt at debunking my initial point. Which you haven’t.
“TRYING reading”? How about “TRY”?
Self employed? Sounds like a choice to me too. No greedy, evil rich people to blame your sub par business and marketing plan(s) on. Do you know your competition? How about your marketing plan? Sounds like a difficult thing to have nailed shut when you are killing time on a site like this playing grammar Nazi and inflating your ego to make up for being so mad that you are barely making ends meet like the rest of us.
clearly all teachers are evil commie socialists wanting to brain wash your children with currupt lefty ideals.
labor of love? when did jesus ever speak of love?
NEVER!
jesus came down and spoke about screw the other people its all about me. ME!!! ME!! ME!!! ONLY ME!!! I DONT CARE IF YOU DIE ITS ALL ABOUT ME!!!!
It was a hard verse to read… but after…. I felt a little closer to God.
**confused look** I thought you didn’t believe in God, how do you get closer to something you don’t believe in. Does not compute… does not compute…
I do believe in God. This was addressed lol’s ago.
I’M the one that doesn’t believe in god.
Its right in his icon! And anway. I don’t see god the same way most of the world religions do anyway… so… its an understandible mistake to make.
My bad. Lo siento. I thought Rando was the liberal who believed in God. $hit, I didn’t mean that to be singular.
I understand you don’t believe in God, and I respect that. But PLEASE OH PLEASE understand and respect those who do.
I’m THE liberal who believes in God? Tell me I’m not the only one. Actually I know I’m not the only one. My wife believes too.
I believe.. In.. Ok I’m spiritual. Not religious.
@Rando…that seems kind of rude, even if it is convenient and clear…um…Dearest Rando… please note that’s not “Rando Dearest”…
You KNOW all liberals are communists and all communists are atheists, therefore simple deductive reasoning makes you an atheist.
*throws Rando and wife out of church*
Silly Rando. Church is for Neocons!
Silly mabsba. We wouldn’t be caught dead in church. Church is what ruined Christianity. ZOMG I STARTED A RELIGION FLAME WAR!!!!
Well, if you’re looking for Christ, according to the New Testament churches are not the best place to start!
*squirts lighter fluid on Rando’s fire*
bitter troll wonders if the romans labled jesus a terrorist
My business is fine, thank you. In fact, allows me the flexibility to take a break to read moronic ramblings.
Teachers (esp. teachers for younger children) get paid shit because it’s traditionally a job that women hold.
The same goes for many secretaries/executive assistants, and any traditionally female-held jobs: they pay shit. Sorry, free-market whores: that doesn’t apply here.* What does? Sexism. Plain and simple. Male jobs pay more. That has changed a LITTLE as jobs have become more unisex, as we’ve moved from one century into the next, and I hope, will change even more. But change is slow . . .
*That’s starting to change, with the shortage of nurses, so market forces are having an effect.
Actually most people who work in grocery stores have a health plan.
That’s true…because most grocery stores are union. And those that aren’t have to compete for the workers with those that are.
But that’s not the norm for retail (eg department stores, etc).
Which grocery stores are you referring to being union?
Safeway, Albertsons, Raleys, Smiths. HEB is a fairly local store in a ‘right to work’ (read anti-unon) state, so I don’t imagine they are, but I don’t know.
They’re not.
I was googling to try to find out which chains are unionized (couldn’t find a good list), and I came across a guy’s blog that (to me) illustrates a serious problem with unions. This guy was saying that it’s a mental thing as far as working for non-union vs. union, and that he felt that his mouth would get him fired at his non-union store for mouthing off at his boss.
How is that a good thing? How is it EVER ok to just say whatever you want however you want to your boss and not worry about consequences? *sigh*
Anyway, I don’t want to start a fight about unions vs non-unions, but I haven’t yet seen them do much around here to improve anything. (my last job was unionized, btw. I hated it)
pfft, even in a union shop you cant say what ever you want, you can get fired , you can get into trouble if you act like an ass.
I did not enjoy dealing with the union in my last job. Not even a little bit.
Unions have their good and bad points. I was just pointing out that the reason most grocery stores offer health insurance is because most are union…it’s become standard for grocery stores because of unions.
Bitter is right, however.
At-will states won’t just let you randomly fire people, either. At least, not in my experience.
bitter troll has never worked in a store like that, but as a former auto worker in detriot, unions was something bitter troll has had to deal with. what it boils down to is – is the union really needed?- in some shops bitter troll worked to get a union in..honestly it was needed. random fireings. poor work conditions, things they knew was a health risk ( like open iso containers ) ignored.
and on the other side of that coin, bitter troll has worked in shops where management was not a bunch of asshats, cared about the health and safty, didnt try to screw us over, and didnt try to pick fights with the crew.
at will states can , but need a reason, but most i have heard of just make something up.
know people that have been just fired for no reason they can think of ( went to work every day, didnt screw around, and poof fired)
Yeah, everything’s like that. I worked in a small office with no sick leave policy…until one person took a week off every month being ’sick.’ So they had to make one because of her. One worker or one manager can screw up a work place, making workers start unions in self-defense or owners making endless rules in their self-defense.
@ froo: sorry, don’t understand connection to what we were talking about?
There isn’t one, mabsba. I just heard the word “union” and it made my hackles rise
Sorry.
Stonewall! (Both a Jackson reference and Jerimiah)
JerEmiah.
I work in an at-will state, and if they want to fire you, unless you have hardcore proof that it was discrimination, they can pretty much fire you for whatever they want, and yes they often DO make up reasons to fire you. Like when I got canned from Jack in the Box. The workers on my shift didn’t like that I made them follow the rules, so they whined to the DM and made up a bunch of stuff about me and BOOM I’m gone.
I manage a restaurant in an at-will state, and you can be fired here for any reason or no reason. The only caveats:
1) If we don’t document misbehavior or inability to perform, you’ll be eligible for unemployment payments.
2) If you can convince a judge, jury, or arbitrator that your firing was a result of discrimination due to race, age, gender, or religion, then you may be eligible for a big cash settlement. (Strangely, the same is not true of people fired due to sexual orientation, at least under federal law.)
Yeah.. I believe the “Right to Work States” really = “Right to Fire Your Ass” states.
Yup. I end up having to explain the whole at-will thing to people several times a week. The receptionist will buzz me and say “Mr. So-and-so is on line 1, he thinks he might have a wrongful termination case…” to which I sigh and say “No, he doesn’t…at least probably not.” Then I have to ask him: 1) Did you have a CONTRACT? (either individually or union); No? Well, then, 2) Were you fired for refusing to do something ILLEGAL? No? Well then, 3) Were you fired for filing a workers’ comp claim? No? Ok, then….if you feel like you were fired for discriminatory reasons, here’s the number for the EEOC. Other than that, go file for unemployment and brush up your resume.
I’ve a cousin who teaches in a ‘right to work’ state. After her maternity leave, she had to start over as a substitute, and wait for a full-time position to open up.
Wait, doesn’t that violate FMLA, VG?
I know that all of the major grocery store chains in the St. Louis area are union and they put up billboards protesting Wal-Mart and Costco because they’re not union. I was going to work part time for one of the chains a few years back when I was between jobs, and I was gonna have to pay to join the union and pay out of what measly wages I would get working there to the union, and that was just to get barely above minimum wage. I decided not to work there after all. Unions have their place, and they have done a lot for workers’ rights, but they get a little too big for their britches too.
My God!! They can actually get away with that kind of shit in the States. Thank God I live here where there are some sort of employment laws against that. If they tried sacking people for no reason you’d have unions, human rights groups, legal support groups and all other sorts up in arms. Is there no legal recourse if this happens??
The other side of the coin. Isn’t that the biggest question for us all, no matter the viewpoint?
Trader Joe’s is non union and has hwalth care benefits for both part time and full time employees but you have to pay a little for them. I know in the land of the “Free” people want everything free, but if you don’t pay for it now you will surely pay for it later.
“I live in the USA, the country with the greatest amount of opportunities in the world.”
I agree with you that this is true. Which means it must really seriously fvcking suck for the rest of the world because there ain’t jack shit as far as opportunity in this country these days. The bootstrap theory is fine for some, but you can’t apply it as a blanket statement for everyone. It’s not fair and it doesn’t work.
Anyone who’s worked in education acknowledges it! But I agree that most people say it’s due to people’s choices.
And dang right! I know that I made a very good choice of parents and owe much of my success to that choice! How dare anyone say I was ‘fortunate’?
Choosing to squander an education – a “free” education (with an agenda, mind you) – is also a choice. Are we not better than that?
I didn’t choose to go to public school any more than you chose your parents. My college was out-of-pocket and had about as many tax dollars as I have airplanes: NONE.
My “fortunate” part ended when I was born a US citizen to good parents. I do find it amusing that you’re pulling out all the stops to make this sound anything but self-made. Sure, I’ve been blessed… I’ll never deny that… but the blessed-to-hard-work ratio is unbalanced enough to make the lefties writhe with discomfort.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of people willing to blame anyone but themselves… to depend on anyone but themselves… in order to survive. It’s those types that will end up costing the rest of us the freedoms we have left.
I’m not following you here. How does your bootstrap theory apply to costing us freedom? And do you have a problem with people receiving aid to go to college? Seriously?
Actually, nearly everyone who attends a college in the US receives taxpayer support. If you attend a state school, usually you pay 1/4 to 1/3 the actual cost of the school. Tax dollars and donations make up the rest.
BUT, since nearly every college in the US is run as a non-profit, they are subsidized by every taxpayer because all their donations are deducted from someone’s taxable income. So they still get tax dollars, albeit indirectly.
BTW, I believe both are appropriate as educating people is in the interest of everyone.
*Note that this is true of traditional schools such as Harvard, etc. I think quite a few of the ‘trade’ schools are for-profit.
Yeah, we would have a mere fraction of the educated people we have today if there weren’t financial aid.
How did I know that THIS particular LOL is where everyone would be posting?
Given your argument, the next step should be to socialize parenting.
It takes a village!
To raise a socialist…..
Of course it’s not government assistance that you probably went to public schools and I bet a public college. I admit that I am very fortunate that I went to public colleges subsidized by tax dollars that I could actually pay for by working. Can’t do that now.
And I have lots of friends with college degrees who can NOT get health care through their jobs and cannot afford to buy it independently.
*high fives mabsba*
i’m right in that crowd – used to do alot of freelancing but i’m ineligible for health insurance due to “pre-existing conditions” from back when i was around 20. nowadays, i gotta hook up with an employer that provides health care, which in this town, mean making less than a quarter what i was as a freelancer. i’m all for this public option – if that was all they did, i could actually make livable wages in the area.
*returns high five*
Since I’m self-employed, I know exactly what you mean. Fortunately my husband’s job offers health insurance ($6000 per year, rising 20% next year).
Personally, I would like the option to buy into Medicare. (And don’t rant at me about all its problems — I would just have to respond with all the problems I have with my current insurance.)
Tell them to take charge of their life. If they want health care from their employer, they apparently need a new employer. If they can’t afford health care, perhaps then need to make that college degree worth more than keeping the paint from fading.
Instead of whining why you don’t have, start taking the steps to get what you want. Talking about why life is unfair gets you nowhere. If all we do is offer the benefits for getting ahead to those that strive for nothing does certainly fails to motivate them to greater heights.
“If they want health care from their employer, they apparently need a new employer. ”
Obviously you haven’t been on the job market in the last year.
Hmmm I think we’ve heard this “bootstrap” argument before..
More than a few times. You’d think that eventually they’d get the message to get off their asses.
Or at least those that feel compeled to help them would just do it with their own money and leave mine alone.
Because frankly I did pull myself up by my bootstraps and I don’t feel compeled to flush my money down the broken toilet of their life.
But then there will always be those that feel they have the right need to spend my money to support the rights they want to give to others all while asking who gave so and so the right to determine someones worth.
It’s always about money, isn’t it?
What about the people who have no bootstraps?
Well, surely they should just go out and buy some!
Curse your flawless logic!
Or get government issue boot straps!!!
YOU SOCIALIST!!!!!
Could be taken one of two ways:
1) Socialism (blah I think I threw up a little in my mouth)
2) Join the Military! (YAY!)
Ack! Er, no, I think I’ll pass on number 2 there. Kthxbai.
No, I KEPT my job.
Feel free to take your bootstrap theory and shove it up your ass. Thanks.
If I ever do feel that need, it won’t be my ass I’d shove it up. But at least my theory won’t be lonely next to your spleen because I’d go ahead and add your sorry as attitude as well.
That felt good. Sometimes, you just have to lower the intellectual level of discussing to a level people understand.
Of course could you really expect anything less when talking to a person whose self imposed blurb is “who wants him castrated by an angry pit bull”
The worst part is that you get to vote on how much of my money you will get to support yourself and then use the freedom I bleed giving you to complain that I have the audacity to complain.
A great reminder for the need to proof read before pressing that last button.
Why am I taking your money? I have a job, and health insurance. That doesn’t meant I’m happy with health care the way it is. And I DESPISE the bootstrap theory because I’ve been working my ass off my entire life and things out of my control keep me from getting ahead. Very often it’s little things like a boss who doesn’t like you, or being assigned to manage a lousy location in your company. My hard work used to pay off in spades. I busted ass in high school and got a full ride to college and graduated from a prestigious private university. But what they didn’t tell me in college was that there were very, very few jobs available in my field, and I couldn’t afford to do the underpaid or unpaid internships. So my degree goes unused. I’m hoping someday to go back to school and get a more useful degree. But no, I don’t have my “sorry ass attitude” because I’m lazy, or I don’t work hard, or because I want your money (I don’t). It’s because I know blanket statements such as yours sell a lot of hard-working people short.
Oh, and if you follow this site, you’d know that pretty much everyone wants to see EWAdams in great pain. It’s not just me.
He must have voice a decenting opinion.
And I most certainly would not follow this site.
First its bias and censored. If I could find another choice for humor that wasn’t I’d happily go.
Second, too many posts that are stupid. Like ‘I posted first’ or ‘how many on base?’
Third, too much insulting. My favorite being calling people trolls for their opinions.
Finally, its not a discussion but a ‘yelling’ match to see who can insult the other the most in a witty fashion. If a shred of actual intellegence accidentally found its way in, it would likely never be found. Even the names foster this purpose.
No, this site contains about as much intellectual value as women’s mud wrestling and not worth any real time.
pfft, troll iz good! being called troll is completment!
and just cause your favorits dont make the FP, cause they are voted on and the things you like dont get voted on by the evil dirty liberal masses who go here most, dont call it censored.
Rax, then get your butt in here and bring about an honest conversation. And I think you will find some of the troll remarks are to keep the people at bay who simply lust for the opportunity to spout stupidity.
You will find cat fights from time to time. *whistles innocently* But you will also find a lot of engaging conversation and often a ton of fun in the puns.
EWAdams does not have a DISSENTing opinion. He’s actually plenty liberal, but his captions are preachy and often provoke flame wars. He isn’t funny in the slightest. The names we’re using are to protest his continuous run of front page selections. I guess you were too busy looking down your nose at us to notice that, huh?
Biased, sure. But that bias comes from the voters more than anything. We don’t like firsters here either, but you can find those in every corner of the Internet. You don’t get called a troll for expressing an opinion. It’s how you do it that gets you that label. If you don’t think we have intelligent conversations, then you’re seriously mistaken. I guess you’re just butt hurt that nobody likes you being a total ass. And if it’s not worth any real time, why are you still here?
because someone is WRONG on the interwebz, and he will show them buttgood! and buttsecks~! SUPRISE BUTTSECKS!!!
My blanket statements probably do sell some people short, but they are still responsible for their own lives. More importantly, I’m not.
That’s too bad about your degree. Its too bad that you were smart enough to get the degree but not to realize you couldn’t do anything with it. The “but they didn’t tell me…” argument is exactly one of my points. Who responsible for your life and your choices? Certainly not “they”.
I’m not rich and famous like I saw through my rose colored glasses either, but where I am and what I’ve got (or don’t have) is of my own making and I accept that. Maybe you should take some time in that mirror as well. Life deals crap and it sounds like we both got some, but in my experience, the cheese is in the other room.
But its your blanket ideology that I have issues with. I’ve pulled myself up and even helped a few others and frankly I’m done. If there are people that feel morally obligated to help those less fortunate, great, but why do they feel obligated to force that belief on others (me). Just send your check into whatever agency it is and feel good.
And just because you are not personally recieving my money does not mean you are not taking it. Did Bush take our money and fund the war in Iraq. Yes he did and that will be part of his legacy as a President. If you feel that you are not taking my money for programs, then you certainly can’t say Bush took your money and funded his war.
How about we just keep our hands to ourselves.
Wow that must have been great. Wish I could have told the HR Lady who said “Your position has been eliminated, you have two weeks left of employment” “Sorry, I reject your assertion I am keeping my job”.
Now who has the flawless logic?
Wish I’d thought of that when I was laid off in CA! Obviously you and I just don’t have a positive enough attitude!
I had to use my severance pay to buy bootstraps.
I tried to pull myself up by my bootstraps but they broke.
trolls dont wear boots, we lace straps to our feets
I did the same and I still have some private health care official telling me I can’t have an injection in my knee but I can appeal his decision and giving me the run around for 6 months. The when they finally give in to my persistence, jack my insurance rates up by almost $100 a month.
and while you’re at it, explain to me why my doctor has to change my reflux medication every 6 months because my insurance has dropped the current med (of course eventually it will cycle back around and be the accepted med).
and why the family who has a less than one year old daughter who the insurance company has decided is underweight and “birth” is aparently a pre-existing condition so they can’t get coverage for her now. So now she has an insurance “history” that will potentially follow her for the rest of her life.
So tell me again why we don’t need health care reform for the entire industry, including the drug companies?
Reform, yes. Government run, no.
Amen Bro!
I second that second.
well sure, but its not going to reform itself.
I third that second!
I second that third. That leaves runners on the corners.
how many outs?
Four.
Who’s up to bat?
No who’s on first.
What’s the name of the guy on second?
Correct.
Who else is gonna do it? Do you really think health care is gonna reform itself?
lol, evidentally history isn’t his strong suit or he thinks the carnegies, astors, bushes, kennedys, vanderbuilts, rockerfellers, cooke, morgan, goulds, or the morgans made all their millions purely with the best interests of society and their employees at heart.
“society under lax political institutions would be wholly directed by interest” ~matthew josephson (1935?)
But what you ignored were things like, those who actually make a decent paycheck, but can’t get health care due to a pre-existing condition. Or those who make enough to live on comfortable but don’t quite make enough for a health insurance plan as their job doesn’t provide one.
As for college education, not everyone can afford one these days as the prices keep rising. I got halfway through before I had to leave due to not being able to afford it when they raised the prices, again.
I’m sure it was your hard work and not good luck that prevented you from getting MS or Alzheimer’s. Nope, no luck involved there.
SILENCE! I KEEL YOU
You’re missing the point. It’s not the federal government’s job to provide health care. That responsibility falls on the states and localities. The 10th amendment, bitches. Read it.
And seriously, the federal government (no matter who is President) has a less than stellar track record of managing anything efficiently. Do you really want that bunch of boneheads in charge of your health care?
*coughmedicarecough*
Government run and failing. Medicare underpaying hospitals is the reason why some hospitals charge so much, that and illegal aliens that can’t pay.
… coughmedicaregoingbrokecough…
*coughstopdrinkingthekooladecough*
*coughtakeyourownadvicefailcough*
*coughhttp://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/going-out-of-business/cough*
Factcheck == The Annenberg Foundation? Puh-lease. That’s like saying MSNBC is a reputable news organization.
I got ya some news that’s probably gonna surprise ya: There is no such thing as a good or objective news organization.
We have a winner!!! And he FINALLY contributes something true and worthwhile to the conversation!
Aaah shut up!
Or like saying Fox News is fair & balanced. *giggle*
i always thought Fox did that ‘cuz they were trying to be clever and ironic…
Sorry to disapoint everyone out there!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FAIR AND BALANCED NEWS ORGANISATION!! Thank you for your attention – You can all go back to sleep now.
I guess you think MSNBC, ABC, CBS are just 100% pure as the wind driven snow?
lol!
JAC, he doesn’t dispute that claim.
But he relies on them. Mocks Fox (whom I don’t watch) as teh ebil, when they all are just as bad.
We all know all the media and news outlets are biased. Is it really that surprising that we’d bash the ones that lean far far away from our views while embracing the ones that seem to share them? I mean, are we really going to say “Wow, MSNBC really speaks to me. That’s EVIL!!!” Obviously MSNBC is blatantly left-leaning, far more so than any of the other networks righties hate. And that is its purpose. The anti-Fox. I mean, duh.
FOX cut off George Carlin while he was talking.
Boo to them.
**puts mask on face** Too many germs flying around this LOL. Who needs a Halls? Or Ricolla!?!!?
You’re a smart guy Ivan.
Saying koolaid and fox news isn’t an answer.
Nope, it isn’t. But if anyone would bother to FACT CHECK (Pun! Note the link) they’d know that saying medicare is failing is just regurgitating koolade they heard from (mostly) Faux Noise.
{http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/going-out-of-business/}
Ivan: Medicare is one of the biggest victims of fraud in the US Government (I keep believe I couldn’t come up with a whittier way of saying government = fraud!!)
Second: CAlling it Faux News doesn’t mean it’s any less legitimate news source. That’s like saying Anybody But Conservatives (ABC), National Barrack Channel (NBC), or National Progressive Radio (NPR). I could go on. You lose quite a bit of legitimacy when you don’t call something by it’s true name.
So let’s not make Mesiah Obama and baby jesus cry and call things as they are.
Especially when calling it Pox News is so much more amusing.
Are you a TERRIFYING terrorist?
what if the terrorists are not terrifying but annoying? do they become ANNOYINGISTS!!!!
But are they Jeff ahh fffff?
You my ho!!!
No, then they become Jalapeños on a stick.
but atleast the liberal news media monster TRIES to hide itself….the fox news media monster dont even bother…TONIGHT ON FOX NEWS” OBAMA WANTS TO MURDER YOUR CHILDREN! AND HOW AL GORE IS GETTING RICH OFF HIS GLOBAL WARMING LIES”
sure obama wants to murder your children..but they got the story all wrong…and sure al gore is getting rich off global warming, but he really believes its right, and has science to back it up. its not a lie if you really think its true and have evidance, its called being inaccurate
No wonder I can’t stand any of them. No matter how many blondes with skimpy skirts they put on them.
Really? Tonight on ABC a 30 minute commercial for Obama’s Health Care.
Tonight on 20/20 Guns will kill you just by looking at them!!!
Talented guns if you ask me.
And Al Gore, while he may really think that global warming is man-made and will one day kill us all, is such a big ass hypocrite with such a big ass that he’s killed the movement single-handedly. At least with those of us moderates who might have actually believed him had he simply committed. I love that he was told that eating meat is a huge contributor to global warming, and he flatly refused to become a vegetarian. Not that I blame him, but good grief, man, don’t make yourself out to be an idiot!! Also, stop using more power to run your damn house than a small country.
I hope they’re Young Guns. Kiefer Sutherland was WAY HOT in those movies.
I liked how they, well, at least that ditz on CBS, hid their liberal bias when they blamed the shootings on Ft. Hood on post traumatic stress syndrome. She would not speculate that it was some Islamic nut case, but was perfectly happy to blame it on the troops and the war.
Hmmm, I wonder why he yelled out “Allahu Akbar!” during the attack? Doesn’t sound like he was too confused about what he was doing.
Because making it about him being a Muslim puts Muslims back into the hate limelight. As soon as word got out that this guy was Muslim, all the bigoted hate mongers got their pitchforks and torches and started calling for the heads of all the Muslims once again. It shouldn’t be about him being Muslim.
I never heard anyone doing that. I didn’t. I think you imagined it. But pulling the wool over everyones eyes about the very real threat of jihad is not healthy for our country. Where do you think this guy got his ideas from? It wasn’t stress from war, he was decked out in full muslim garb. No one in this country hates muslims just because they are muslims, it’s mostly the other way around.
“No one in this country hates muslims just because they are muslims”
My neighbor told me they shouldn’t even allow muslims into the military after the Fort Hood attack.
Your point is now debunked, by one single person.
Did he say he hates them?
Don’t allow Muslims into the military. Yup, sounds like hate to me. It’s all over the news about how people are pissed at the Muslims again, n00bs. It’s not hard to find.
Oh of course not, they just said that because they love Muslims so much they don’t want them to get hurt in the military.
But Rando! You should know that no one hates anyone unless they very clearly say it! No one hates gays! They just don’t want them to be tied down in marriage like us straight folks! The Nazis didn’t hate the jews! They just put them in those camps so that they could all be happy together!
No one hates Obama, they just call him a nazi and oppose him at every turn so that he doesn’t do something that might possibly embarass him!
And good lord, I said I’d stay the hell away from this one… Thanks n00bs, your absurd generalization has drawn me back in… thanks a lot.
I get the impression from n00bs’ reply to me that he’s on the Muslim hate bandwagon right now too.
I guess none of you guys care they shot up all those military guys? I see more hatred of our military more than I see hatred of muslims in this country and it really bothers me. Because of political correctness, they are expendable, on the battlefield and now on our own soil.
…and sorry Max, you are excused from this thread!
As a matter of fact, I am excusing myself as well.
I do love the military, my brother in fact, is in the marines and I support everything he does, because he’s just doing what the government and his superiors told him to do. You’ll find that most of this hatred toward the military is more anger towards the commanders, the folks giving the orders. No soldier just goes off doing what they want, they’re under orders, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a moron, and I give you permission to tell them so. But blaming a whole nation of people for one person’s extremism is not the way to get to the root of the problem, it only creates more. That’s basically what I’m saying. I’ve known a good number of muslims, most of which are the nicest people I’ve ever met, and they’re scared, scared to death when things like this happen because in America, it’s not an individual’s fault, it’s the ideologies. Christianity runs into the same problems. Blaming a group for the actions of an individual or individuals is no way to find and solve the problem.
Where on earth did you get that I don’t care that this guy shot up a bunch of military? I don’t care if he shot up the military, a school, a mall, whatever, this guy was completely FVCKED in the head. What I’m saying is that it’s NOT cool to take our anger over this situation out on all Muslims. This was not an attack on America by Muslims. It was one guy going totally batshit. Period.
Rando: To you’re not to say he was Muslim. Then should we not say the guy who shot the people outside the Native American Museum was a neo-nazi? Or that the people who dragged the gay teenager behind the car were homo-phobes? What was done at Ft Hood was a hate crime if I’ve ever seen one, yet it isn’t being labeled as such by our wonderful liberal media. All I hear about is how he was mocked for being Muslim. Boo FREAKING hoo.
The difference, ILPB, is that neo-nazis and homophobes exist for the sole purpose of hatred. They’re not religions. You wanna compare them then say a bunch of Christians dragged the gay teenager (I don’t know if they were or not). And again, we don’t need a ton of hatred welling up for Muslims again because one went nuts, and that’s exactly what’s going on. And I haven’t heard the liberal media pushing this down at all. I’ve seen it addressed over and over again. What I also see in the papers is that people are starting up their thinly veiled racism again.
It sickens me that people would get all frothy against an entire religion (and let’s be honest here, we’re talking about people who are or look like they’re from the Middle East, so even more racist) because of extremists or some guy in the army who clearly lost it. And the next person who says something about me not caring about the people who died or were injured at Ft. Hood gets kicked in the nuts.
I disagree. I think that people should state what race/ religon/ etc the person is. That way it gives those he/she “represent” a chance to denounce that individual.
The “hatred” you speak of towards Muslims would probably be quelled by the Muslim leaders in the world coming out and denouncing this man’s actions. However they are either
A) Eerily silent
B) Cheering the event.
Less us not forget this religion of peace, had Millions upon millions frothing for the heads (yes actual heads) of people who drew a frickin cartoon, or even showed it. This is the same religion that allows for the stoning of a woman to death pretty much at her husband’s whim. This is the religion that lacks the ability to denounce it’s own people who create travesties upon the world. I’m sorry but if this was Christianity, the liberals (present company excluded) would have no hard time condemning it as a whole in religion.
I don’t know if it’s cowardice (b/c the extremists in this religion don’t play nice) or what, but I think enough is enough. I know not all Muslims are that way, and yes there are some peaceful ones, but THEY need to take back their religion. Just like the Republicans need to take back the party from the Religious Right.
**Steps off soap box and opens arms for the inferno to ensue**
I basically have one thing to say on this topic, and then I’m going to leave it alone until we actually have more information about the guy and what happened.
It annoyed me a little to hear people on tv saying that it was wrong to even speculate about whether his motive was related to his faith “because it makes Muslims look bad.” Talking/speculating about it as one of several possibel motives isn’t really making anyone “look bad.” It’s the guy who went batshit crazy and decided for whatever reason to pick up a gun and take out as many of his co-workers as possible that’s making them look bad right now. At this point, the possibility that it was an individual act of political terrorism seems at least as likely as the theory I heard somebody propose that he had PTSD from counseling soldiers who had been in the war. I’m sorry, I’ll admit right now that I’ve neither been to war nor done post-battle counseling, but I’m ready to go out on a limb here and say that getting PTSD from hearing other people’s war stories is like getting PTSD from watching “Platoon” too many times, or playing “Medal of Honor.”
That said, I don’t approve of overgeneralizing and I think, especially given that the shooter survived, it’s worth waiting to see what he has to say about his own motives.
You think medicare isn’t going broke?
Really, you and I don’t deal well with each other, so please stop responding to my posts. It’ll just turn into another pissing match. Just go read the link.
I did, and it even said that there were parts that were in trouble.
“In trouble” ≠ “Going broke”.
these days, “everything” is in trouble, it’s the state of the economy and all that. gotta say i’m with ivan on this one.
Been “in trouble” for some time. And the only way out is to increase taxes. And funny, in trouble meant going broke when it was banks, just a few months ago.
the difference was the banks really were going broke. and the taxes that have been raised are raised in areas where they were previously (by bush) kicked down ridiculously low – a government cannot function without funding, simple as that. just a blanket statement, “fix it by raising taxes” is idiotic in a way because you can raise taxes that hurt the situation or you can raise taxes that need to be raised and fix the situation. go research what happened with those banks some more – the TARP wasn’t the best idea because it lacked regulation and oversight (another trend of the Bush admin) but since then i think they’ve done a good job at fixin what needed fixin’ – just remember it’s a ton of shit that’s broke so it’s not going to be an overnight fix, especially with the rpublican half of the house and congress doing nothing but throwing a tantrum.
Oh, I don’t agree with TARP. Or Bush, fwiw.
But the CBO says that Medicare is in trouble. Not just me.
To wallfly. Why dont liberals like yourself ever acknowldege the fact that the democrats were running the house and senate for the last 3 years? You can’t keep blaming Bush for everything. When do the Democrats ever take responsibility? Never?
Generalize much, Semperfidd?
The term Fact Check used was insolvent. True, it’s not the same as being bankrupt. But it’s pretty close.
Insolvent: 1 a (1) : unable to pay debts as they fall due in the usual course of business (2) : having liabilities in excess of a reasonable market value of assets held b : insufficient to pay all debts c : not up to a normal standard or complement
Bankrupt: 1 a : a person who has done any of the acts that by law entitle creditors to have his or her estate administered for their benefit b : a person judicially declared subject to having his or her estate administered under the bankrupt laws for the benefit of creditors c : a person who becomes INSOLVENT.
Crow/Blackbird/Magpie…….
Going broke for government program equates to taxing more therefore no more problem. Until you borrow from that program to pay for a illegitimate program which funds were not released for, then that said program is again in trouble until you raise that tax to pay again…. it’s cyclical.
No, all you have to do is look at other government run institutions to get an idea of how things will be run. Anyone get their H1N1 vacine yet?
Muahahaha! That’s another reason why your health care is so expensive! Noone needs that vaccine but everybody just absolutely has to get it!
Yes, everyone has to get it, but the government has run out! They aren’t even allowed to test for it now because they are running out of test kits. How long has the gov. known about this “pandemic”. Look at how prepared they are, people already standing in lines for a flu shot. Shades of the future people.
It’s just a flu, nothing to worry about.
It’s not the flu itself he is arguing.
No it’s the stupid panic around it.
No, the inability of the government to handle it, what if it really was a huge pandemic, we would be screwed.
that could and will eventually happen sometime. If the government knew about it or not. And even if they knew well in advance, there’s definitely gonna be a pandemic at one time or another that can’t be addressed, simply because there’s no meds or vaccines against it. Till then… let’s party and stop worrying so much! Heeehaw!
There is a vaccine in existance, they government says we need to get it, they have run out of vaccine, now people are out standing in lines… This is how all health care will be run if the government gets its paws on it. I personally don’t think it’s anything to worry about but I don’t have children. If I did I think I would be screaming.
it is just a flu but the reason they’re worried is two-fold:
1st – it’s following the very same pattern that the 1918 flu did (showed up out of flu season very weak but very contagious, then struck again during the regular flu season as a super flu and killed millions)
2nd – they’re worred that if there, becasue this is so contageous, that it might mutate and become worse (like #1) the result there would be an explosion in hospitilizations which would only compound the problem.
that being said, if you’re getting the flu now, it’s still out of flu season, so you’ve got about 90% likeliness it’s the swine flu. check out the CDC site, it’s very informative.
I personally think ‘just the flu’ should leave our vocabulary, considering how many people die from it each year. The big difference with H1N1 is that it has this tendency to kill the young, rather than the elderly.
And by the way, the problem with the H1N1 vaccine is that the virus grew too slowly in the eggs. Not the government’s fault, nor the vaccine-producing companies’
Perhaps the government is simply unwilling to handle it because they know how stupid it is for people to be as scared as they are…
They actually brought out the vaccines for it rather quickly this time if you compare it to other times vaccines had to be produced for (fairly) new strains. Or even vaccines of strains we should have already had prepared. From what I’ve heard, its mostly been communication issues.
While I am a die-hard Conservative who would love nothing more than to blame Obama for everything and have him court-marshaled, the vaccine shortage isn’t his fault. It’s not even the government’s fault, since this thing came on quick and just didn’t go away. VG gave you the answer behind why it’s taking so long, so I won’t again.
Let’s all blame Obama for things he’s actually responsible for, like pretending the healthcare bill doesn’t have anything ulterior going along with it, even though they refuse to do anything out in the open like they promised to do. /trolling
Why would you need a test kit for H1N1? They can’t do anything to cure it anyway, so if you have it, the options are:
A.) rest up and get better (just like any other influenza)
B.) die (in extremely rare cases complicated by other factors)
just like you can also die with the normal flu.
Exactly.
If you have H1N1-induced pneumonia, then they need to get you on an anticoagulant. The major killer in that case is pulmonary embolus. So if you are hospital-sick, then yes, it matters.
Right, if you have other complications you go to the hospital for treatment of the resulting side effects.
They still can’t cure the actual flu.
No they can’t cure the flu. But they may be able to keep you from dying of it. The flu-related pneumonia is not due to secondary bacterial infection in this case–the lung inflammation is caused by the flu virus itself–prescription antiinflammatories, oxygen, and a respirator might just keep you alive.
The non-bacterial pneumonia is different from most influenzas of the past decades, and more like the flu of 1918. The pneumonia-rated pulmonary embolus appears to be a new phenomenon.
Testing is important for understanding the spread of the illness. The CDC need to test for it, they are supposed to.
We know how it spreads. It spreads in the same way as other influenza virus infections. Again, they can’t do anything to curb the spread, so what’s the point?
What if it isn’t like other flu? If they can’t do anything to stop the spread, why are they offering a vaccine? That seems like a complete waste of time and money if it can’t stop the spread of the disease, which is why we have vaccines.
They have offered a flu vaccine for the other strains for many years. It was designed for people who are at high risk due to other health complications, weakened immune system, old age, heart problems, etc.
The strain changes from year to year, so getting a vaccine this year won’t do anything for you next year. It’s not like immunizing for polio or smallpox.
It’s not an effort to curb the spread, it’s an effort to protect those most at risk.
So if you keep people from getting the flu, you aren’t curbing the spread this year? Seems you are to me, no matter what happens next year.
You don’t get it. By the time they know what strain will be a problem, they have very little time left to react and produce vaccinations. It’s not like they have a crystal ball and can just stockpile vaccinations for years ahead of time in preparation.
That’s why there is almost ALWAYS a ’shortage’ of flu vaccines, even though it is usually artificial. I hear about it every year, but this year because it has a fancy name “swine flu” it has managed to make it to the forefront of the media.
Perfectly healthy people like yourself rush out to get vaccinated against something that will probably only make them sick enough to stay home from work for a day or two. An inconvenience, but not a life threatening condition. There are many millions of these people, but the doctors offices and clinics are not required to differentiate between “high risk” patients and those who simply want a flu shot.
Phama producers have a short timetable to produce the vaccine for those high risk patients, and no easy way to distribute to only those high risk patients.
So your truly high risk patients end up missing out on flu shots because paranoid people who don’t want to get sick rush out and snatch up all the shots.
Now do you see?
Yes, in an ideal world we could all just get immunized (although I would still choose not to), but in reality it’s a huge undertaking people need to just have faith in your immune system.
I’m sure there is some way to make sure that at risk population gets the available shots instead of the inefficient way they are doing things now. I didn’t and will not get one btw.
I’m sure the free market could have handled it better. Or make that not at all – just not enough profit in it. Why bother to save lives if you can’t make a buck?
Just because the government didn’t do a job that meets your expectations doesn’t mean that they didn’t do the very best job that anyone could have done in the circumstances. Developing and producing a vaccine takes TIME – it can’t be done in overnight, and it’s unfair to blame the government for not doing better than what was possible.
SILENCE YOU KEEL YOU!
Um, it is private companies that are making the flu vaccines…as always. Steve explained the process pretty well, so I won’t repeat that.
And any effort the government has made to help (eg CDC testing) has been severely hampered by the Republican congresswoman who amended the pandemic flu appropriation from the stimulus bill this spring.
I don’t think I made my point clearly, so I will try again. Yes, private companies produce them – for the government, who offered them a contract to do so. They don’t sell them on the open market, although I believe they could. It’s just not profitable enough.
Keith; You don’t have children do you? The FLu can kill anyone under the age of 2. Really good chance of killing someone under the age of 6 months. So yes I’m one of those in line to get the Flu vaccine, but not for me, but my daughter.
Also the old have a good chance of getting the flu and it killing them. So anyone who works, acts, or is around old people should get it as well.
Then there are those with immune deficiency that too can die from the flu.
So all I’m seeing who don’t need the vaccine are people between the age of 2 – 65 who have perfect immunities and don’t hang aorund young children or old people.
ILPB – the trend with this virus though is that it’s striking hardest the people with good immune systems, the only ones who’ve had a better-than-expected immunity to the virus are the older generatoins. It’s one of the other similarities this flu has with the 1918 flu (hence the underlying concern). Given that though, the flu-related deaths so far have all been due to complications or pheumonia that was brought on during the flu.
wallfly: He was talking about the regular Flu vaccine. H1N1 I’m not getting b/c who knows what it’ll do. But the regular Flu vaccine is a necssity in some people’s lives.
ah, didnt’ realise that, thought it was a continuation of the swine flu from above. thanks for clarifying
Actually I think it was. Misread on my part. However need to watch for children.
All those people can also get hit by a bus and die tomorrow morning, and unfortunately there’s no bushit vaccine.I say, stop worrying so much and enjoy life while it’s there.
Keith: And if you could prevent someone from getting hit by the bus would
A) hold them still and make sure the blood splatters all over you
B) Pull them out of the way
The FLu vaccine is B).
PS: It would probably be hard to enjoy life if your 6 month old child is in Intesive Care with a spinal to help regulate his or her temperature or else he or she will die. You know, just the small things.
Blah, you’re searching for the improbable details now to prove you’re right, but you actually know you aren’t.
*reconsiders that $400 check for the Metro Bus vaccine*
If you’re in DC you def need it. Did you also get the MEtro Rail vaccine?
i thought about it, but i avoid the rail like the plague. (fortunately, i only have to go into arlington with the very few exceptions, so busses are really all i have to worry about).
I read that as “bullshit vaccine” and had a giggle.
Sad thing is so did I. Juveniles of the world UNITE!!
That must include me as well then!! I read it as Bullshit too. Hmm it’s not only me that needs glasses then
I can understand that sentiment. I never bothered with a flu vaccine till I had my kid. Then I started too for his safety, and when he was old enough I got him vaccinated as well.
He and I both have asthma, so I planned on getting the h1n1 vaccine… but we ended up catching it, and have been really sick all week with it. >.< And we both have asthma, which is aggrivated by said flu. Arg.
Jess: Don’t go with the fvcktard response of “You’re evil b/c you don’t want to be forced to pay for other’s health care.” Why not try and argue with facts vice “feelings”. If you want to help those “less fortunate” so be it, let it be on your nickle, but don’t force your “morals” on me.
Then you and everyone else that feels that way are free to use your money to solve it. But you won’t unless everyone is forced to as well.
I always wonder why when school levys fail, why those that argued so strongly for it doesn’t donate the money they would have been charged anyway.
Are you serious? They probably don’t have enough money themselves, thus the reason for needing a tax levy. What a question.
Really? I didn’t/don’t want *my* money given to Halliburton to build this stupid border wall. But wasting more of my money to paint a car doesn’t make a lot of sense.
What makes you think *your* money was used to supe up this ride?
Unless, of course, you actually did it yourself.
Comprehension fail. If I was pissed about how someone else, including the government, spent some of my money, I wouldn’t spend more of my money painting *my* car as a statement. Financial Sense 101.
…. so you’d just take it.
Duly noted.
Remember to close your eyes and think of England. I hear that helps.
So you can’t comprehend either. Didn’t say that I wouldn’t do anything. I believe you saw what I (and many, many, many others) did last November when we tossed out the administration that spent more money than most the previous ones combined.
Considering that this one has spent even more than that combined with the previous spending in the last year (I believe that’s right), I don’t think we got a better deal.
At least we’ll be getting something better than dead Iraqis for our money.
Actually, that’s not true, and I’ll leave it at that.
Or he decided to use his/ her money for something he/she chose. You know that whole freedom thing.
About the wall. The US Government can constitutionally pay to have a wall built, however the government CAN NOT constitutionally provide Universal Health Care.
You noticed that too?
Wow, sounds like the constitution sucks.
Rando, no! Now they’ll call you a terrorist!!!
Really? I was hoping for commie bastard.
So you have no problem paying for internet access to make gripes when your money is being pissed away elsewhere? So with that logic, we can only protest using our own money when our tax dollars are being used efficiently?
That’s funny. I have to write this one down!!
Oh wait, “comprehension fail”? Again? Most people would ignore your arguments simply because of your holier-than-thou wording.
Objective identification failure. Unless you truly thought that such an eye catching advertisement vehicle would encourage people to rethink their position and change what you believed was a deadly mistake.
Of course in this case I would tend to agree with you. Sides have already been drawn and nothings going to change which side of the line people are on.
um…. what “border wall” do you mean,exactly?
I like the retro ref to “Halliburton”, though. It’s very quaint. Like Fonzie on Happy Days.
Really? You don’t know about the $700 million plus no-bid contract given to a Halliburton subsidiary (what the difference is between that and Halliburton I fail to comprehend) to build a wall along the Mexican border?
Thanks, but no thanks. Most people in these border states would much rather have had $700 million spent on the Border Patrol. Now our only hope is that Texas really does secede and we can take their Border Patrol agents!
If we do secede, I’m sure those agents will be staying (along with the militia) to keep ya’ll out
Sorry, they’re federal employees. They may stay, but their paychecks won’t. WIN for us!
Guess again. Texas is one of the only Mexico border states that actually pays in more taxes than we get back. (New Mexico actually gets two dollars in spending for every dollar they send in!) So with the money we save by leaving we can afford to pay the border agents ourselves.
Texas is also one of the few states that can probably sustain itself while at the same time crippling a big part of the US economy by not letting anyone else use the port of Houston. We also have NASA, some of the best doctors in the world, and a BUNCH of tech companies here, so be careful what you wish for, mabsba
Also kolaches. Mmmm.
Yes, we have a lock on good kolaches, so suck it, bitches!!!
The best ones (I’ve heard) are from around Houston or San Antonio. I don’t care for kolaches myself, so I don’t know.
Oi! You are NOT leaving, young lady!
You can’t stop me!!! *secedes*
Didn’t you see the Petoria episode of Family Guy? That’s not a really good idea, froo.
I’ve had some from a little bakery in West that were phenomenally good.
I always wondered if you bounced a check in West, Texas if it was a hate crime.
(note the comma in between West and Texas) *waits for anyone who knows the area to get the joke*
LOL! I just saw it, and yes, probably.
Is that where Marty Robbins fell in love with that Mexican Girl?
No, that was El Paso, I think. West, Texas (as opposed to West Texas) is really located in sort of East-Central Texas, in between Dallas and Waco.
*headdesk*
And near 4ft rabbits.
With antlers. I’ve see the postcards.
(seen them too)
Fast as fast can be, you can’t catch me!
Is it just me or is Nasa a federal thing? And doesnt it seem likely that a lot of the tech comps would hang onto that one?
You are correct (the N is for national).
Didn’t say I wanted you to leave. Just saying that that’s our only hope of getting more money for Border Patrol agents because the feds spent so much ‘border control’ money on the wall.
No-bid Halliburton contract? Like the ones Clinton handed out?
Which ones? I’m not arguing that Clinton-originated no-bid contracts may exist, but asking for clarification. I would like to know how long Halliburton/Bechtel/KBR/name-of-the-week has had their hooks in our government coffers!
Probably a lot longer than Cheney had anything to do with, LOL. I love it that the most recent problems are blamed on the most recent target, but hey, you can’t extend people’s memories any further than they want to
I’m sure Cheney had his hand in during the Reagan years as well.
But I checked on Wikipedia. Both Bechtel and Halliburton have been around since the turn of the last century. And Bechtel got into highway building for the government pretty darned early–1920’s!!! Their first really big contract was joining with 5 other companies to get the nod to build the Hoover dam. Yup, them sure are some long sticky fingers!!!
Well put
This. I don’t give a flying fuck if this dude spends a couple hundred thousand of his own dollars on a car. No one bitches when Trump buys a six million dollar apartment complex.
What I object to is Obama spending MY money that the IRS stole from ME on a system I don’t want, need, or support in any way shape or form.
And to “Jess”, no, I don’t give two flying shits about those less fortunate than me. Why? because they are already dead. I’m below the bottom of the latter. I would benefit greatly from Obama’s socialist ambitions. But I would rather claw my way to the top of a capitalist system than live forever at the bottom of a socialist one. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
To those of you who apparently love socialism so much, GO TO RUSSIA. THEY ALREADY USE IT THERE. Why change us when you can just leave and save everyone a lot of time and stress.
Fuck Obama
Fuck socialized medicine
And fuck every single one of you failures who claims to hate capitalism because you wont put in the effort to climb, but would rather bitch about it than go somewhere that already conforms to your views. Fuck you.
Wait for it….
********waiting*********
**Throws pie in Carolinian’s face, honks my fake red nose and runs off**
*chases ILPB with seltzer spritz*
Dude, who pissed in your corn flakes this morning? Take a chill pill. Here, have one of mine. You can take it with your champagne and you’ll feel 100 times better.
Don’t pay attention to the 40 morphine pills I’m slipping into your vodka.
You are nothing but a frothy idiot, and I don’t mind people who don’t want healthcare, just FYI- It’s them being unreasonable and LOUD and OBNOXIOUS about it.
F*ck you.
F*ck your logic.
And f*ck every single inch of your body until it is in a coma that your insurance company labels a “pre-existing condition”.
*please add the govt bureaucrats who add pre existing conditions.*
Justa, I’m pretty sure teens/young adults covered that with the whole “stick it to the man” movement a few years ago….
We weren’t allowed to swear then.
Just don’t forget it NOW. And play some PONG. It’s good for you.
I love when my downloads have pong on the client…
And Tetris, and Asteroids, Alien invasion, etc. (None of that new crap, by the way! Except maybe the version where it *never* gives you the block you’re looking for. That version’s pretty amazing.)
I still have my original Gameboy and Nintendo in my room on the shelf, alongside my Terry Pratchett collection and the rest of my books…
I think at this point the only vintage game system my husband doesn’t have yet is a Sega, and I’m sure that’ll be the next purchase after the X Box *sigh* I’m married to a child
He would buy a Sega? I’M MOVING TO TEXAS. NOWWWWWWWW.
*Owns a SEGA*
Lol…if he really wants a Sega I can probably arrange that. We had one and my son gave it to his big sister and her then-boyfriend last year…this year they bought a Wii so I don’t know if they still want the Sega. It’s got a big old box of game cartridges with it, too. Pitfall, anyone?
My power pack is bad. You have an extra?
(psssst) The only difference is the toys we get to play with, and by toys, I mean breasts.
I miss my Xbox so much. I has a sad.
Do me a favor. Download and play ZORK. I want to seriuosly know how long it takes you to beat it.
I love type-command games.
Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy version is my favorite.
Ever play the Kings Quest series? Or Black Cauldron?
Nah- I don’t take much time for type commands. I get frustrated too easily and use up all my turns doing things like “f*ck door”- “What a loony!”
Oh man. You missed out, Kings Quest was THE first graphic role playing series. And with multiple endings, depending on your abilities. I strongly suggest you find a link. And DEMAND when you do, share it with an old fart like me.
*blows dist as he farts*
I remember those! My best friend from elementary school was addicted to all those Sierra games back when they were actually new and current.
Ah yes or the famous EN DO command on the Hobbit (at least the early editions of the Hobbit. I had v1.2 which meant that the EN DO command didn’t work. And not forgetting Thorin who used to sit down and sing about Gold or Gandalf who used to keep nicking the bleeding map. And of course Mirkwood, where you could attempt to go through Mirkwood (pausing twice before moving in order to prevent you getting stung by the insect), however on going through the second area in Mirkwood, you could wait, get the Wood Elf appearing, capturing you and as you didn’t complete the two waits, the system would drop the insect on you even though you were in the Wood Elf Dungeon. BTW Check the Link for all Speccy Fans. There are tons of games there including text and graphic adventures.
Does your NES actually WORK? I didn’t know there were any left that actually worked.
Go to a car parts store, and ask for PB Blaster. This is a WD-40 type spray, but one that ACTUALLY works. using electronics qtips (Radio Shack, they don’t leave lint) clean the cartridges and the main deck with it. (It’s easier to take the deck apart and do it)
Let it dry overnight. Then stomp some gumbas!
Have you read the Artemis Fowl books?
Wow, I can’t believe I missed this guy until now. How did this asshole slip through the moderators? Taxes are money stolen from you, huh? So you don’t think the government should take any taxes? How exactly is it going to pay for itself then? Let me guess, you want to cut about 90% of the government out and everything GOOD that it does (except of course for a massive military), and leave every man for himself. Sink or swim, right? If you can’t make it, then you deserve to fail. What do you care if everyone else goes down swinging, as long as you’re doing okay. Am I right? Fvck you too, you heartless bitch.
Oh, and you’re not gonna climb and scratch your way to the top of the capitalist ladder. That’s just a fantasy. It’s not gonna be you. And fvck you for thinking I don’t put in the effort. I work my ass off in a dead end job for every dollar I make. I work my ass off, and instead of getting ahead, I keep falling further and further behind. And Russia isn’t socialist, moron. The USSR fell. Do me a favor: STFUGTFOESADITOPASAP
Dude’s been asleep for the last 20 years, apparently.
::psst:: Mr. Champagne & Gunsmoke, sir? Here’s the Internet. This is what’s called a search engine. See? What you do, is type in “history” and oh, about 1990, maybe ‘91 (I can’t remember exactly, it’s been so long ago, now, for all of those who’ve lived through those years and were paying attention at the time), and “U.S.S.R.” and well, that should be enough to bring up the fact that Russia is not the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ANYMORE. Kthnxbai.
Before someone hops on it, I left out: . . . Russia is not part of the Union of . . .
Oh I get it. Its the official pace car for those against Obama. Its like saying “look at what happens to people without insurance.” Its like its a pro Obama car. I was concerned at first, until I realized that this guy was an obvious lefty.
That, good sir, is most definitely not me. I am currently without a car. Even if I had I car, I most definitely would not go around painting political statements on it, only to tow it around and not drive it.
I would appreciate it if you didn’t slander my name. If I do not get the immediate satisfaction of your cessation, I will be forced to engage in fisticuffs with you. Good day, good sir.
I’m thinking he’s towing it to a protest or something to save mileage on it, or reduce the risk of it getting damaged. That’s typically the reason for towing a vehicle, assuming it runs. Not “because I can”
That said, I really hope you already knew that and were only joking, which is a distinct possibility.
Um, first… how do you know that the hearse is drivable; it could have been purchased used & non-functional as a display.
Second … if you are a “lefty” you are a dying breed. Pretty much every lefty I know has a compulsive need to plaster political statements on *their* car…
Much different from all those W stickers I saw a few years back.
Yeah right next to the “1/20/09 End of an Error” stickers. Or the “Anybody but Bush” stickers. Or My dog ate your honor student sticker”
COEXIST, anyone.
*braces for impact*
*pummels Classicist with Darwin fish*
*Puts the “Coexist” religious symbol bumber sticker on Classicist’s forehead*
But that’s where I keep the witty sticker concerning my thoughts about dragons and ketchup.
Those stickers all look awesome!
I prefer the “On No” stickers that have the “O”’s as the OBama sign.
Or “No thanks you can keep the change.” However I don’t put political stickers on my car, only my college. AND I will never be that parent that puts on the “honor roll” sticker.
I think that is one thing we have in common. I personally think most all car stickers are a bit trashy.
I had two cars in the past that I put a few stickers on, one to cover the rusty spots a little and the other because it was sooooo generic I kept trying to get into other people’s cars in parking lots.
My goal was generally to try to make people behind me at traffic lights smile, though, rather than to put my opinions out there.
Diss, am I just gonna say all the wrong things by you today or what? Geez. See if my ass gets grabbed again!
Lol…don’t think I’m picking on you! I’m just offering my own experience.
And as for….well, it is Friday.
*grabs ass*
*runs away*
I was proud of my neo-con mother recently (moreso than normal, LOL). I think I may have told this story, but her associate pastor (who is a douche) put about 11 stickers on the back tailgate of his brand new pickup truck. It ran the gamut from “I’ll keep my guns and my Bible, you can keep the change” to “Another Big Ass Mistake America”, and everything in between. He also had an “Obama is a communist” sticker right next to an “Obama is a socialist” sticker. Mom would never give me permission to ask him if he even knew the difference, or did he just want people to think of him as an idiot?
Anyway, Mom doesn’t like Obama one little bit, but she was offended by the scope of the stickers and the obvious hatred with which this guy was displaying them (right next to a sticker of the rebel flag…..classy). So she told him that he was no longer welcome at her house until all of those stickers were gone.
He ended up having to take the tailgate off and have it professionally painted, because removing the stickers ruined the paint, hehe.
LOL! Justice is served..
I like things that make me smile on people’s cars. Like the bright yellow jeep in my area with the lisence plate “BRCKRD”
I want to find a bumper sticker that says “I need a regular intake of coffee to keep the blood from diluting my caffine system”
My friend has one that says: There’s too much blood in my caffeine supply.
She gave me one that says: I took a pain pill; why are you still here?
Hmmm.. My old car had the best stickers on it. A “Your Mom” sticker, a bunch of band stickers and other funny stickers. Nothing opinionated though.
Ok, I did have a sticker that said “No Ass Ravers”, I guess that’s kind of opinionated..
If we’re playing favorite bumper stickers, I like: When the rapture comes, can I have your car?
Seen on the back of a really sad looking old Volvo.
I don’t have the bumper stickers. But I still have my “Bush lies, soldiers die” pin and my “GOP: Greed Oil Plunder” pin on my bulletin board on my desk.
Saw another today: When Jesus said to love our enemies, I don’t think he meant kill them.
I am proud of you, not many people are willing to admit they are idiots.
You’re right. Telling the truth about the Republican Party (note that I didn’t identify Republicans) makes me an idiot. How foolish of me. STFU.
I said nothing about Republicans, though I will freely admit I am not one. You are an idiot because you do not think, rather you wantonly repeat silly slogans thinking it will change anything or will make you (feel) better than most people. If you want to change things (likely you don’t, you would just rather have the feeling of being right in your own little world) then go change things and do not rely on someone else to do it for you. – This message sent on the off chance you are only an idiot and not a fool also.
So, to summarize, you think I’m an idiot because I bought a couple pins with slogans I liked? I think you’re reading a bit too much into a damn pin.
I read too much into a pin once…. I almost lost an eye.
Um… First, it doesn’t matter if it’s used or non-functional, as I said that I wouldn’t buy a car to put political statements on it, anyway.
Second… If you weren’t new here, you’d know that my name comes from my dominant hand, not my political views. That would be the joke I was getting at. Thank you for butting your head in and failing hard. Bye.
Hee hee you said butting and head in the same sentence. heee hee..
Tee hee. Your name has “nut” in it. Hee hee hee.
hehe. he likes nut butter. eeewww…..
ha ha it has nut and butt in it ho ho..
Alright, so this made me laugh.
Dude, if I had a hearse, I wouldn’t want to drive it either. Do you know what gas is like with those things?
Exactly. And they aren’t cheap, even used. Funeral homes scoop those things up for a fortune and repair them.
Less money than what they used for the porkulous plan and what they plan to spend on “The Public Option”
Fu(kweasel™
Troll comment™
It figures you’d have the trademark on “Troll comment™”.
Comes in handy.
So I see. Good job, troll!
Win to Ivan.
Talking to yourself again? You need to see someone about that.
And you should see someone about that butthurt.
I’m not the one calling people names because I don’t agree with them. That’s the definition of butthurt if you ask me.
Yeppers. You nailed that one on the head.
Dude, Ivan’s right. You do go around here trying to pick fights with him. He doesn’t want to argue with you, so why not leave him alone?
No one asked you.
Doesn’t matter, I tell them anyway. I’m nice like that.
Chivalry isn’t dead!
No, Ivan and ay dios mio are two distinct people. You know that.
Yea, I know that, that comment was meant for Ivan but ADM snuck in there before me.
No they aren’t. Their actually Siamese Twins so they are distinct, but not two separate people!!
WTF? Is it my god damned day in the barrel? Why is everyone trying to provoke me? ILPB, what have I said to piss YOU off today? I haven’t responded to ANY of your posts. Seriously, I’m trying to remember if I took any drugs this morning, because this is surreal!
Ivan: That was not intended to make fun of you at all. It was uspposed to be a joke on all the stupidity in this LOL.
You and Ay being SIamese Twins is so far fetched I though you’d get a chuckle. Sorry.
And yes I will piss in your Jiffy Pop b/c there’s too much salt, and you seem your blood pressure is high enough today. Just looking out for you..
Calmate, Ivan. He was teasing about the phrasing, not about you. Woosah.
*rubbing earlobe* Woosah.
Ivan: I’ll accept your apology.
Oh, I’m not apologizing. You got pretty douchy up top there.
Where? I don’t see no Douche. Just b/c I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m being douchey. I get annoyed when people call it Faux News, just like you get annoyed when people call Obama your Messiah. It’s annoying, invalidates the point, and really doesn’t add to the arguement.
**gives “stare down”**
oh stop drinking the kool-aid
But it’s tropical punch!
That’s okay–he can make all the money back renting the hearse out for the funerals of all the people who die either because they can’t afford insurance or because their insurance company refuses to pony up when they try to put in a claim…
(Hey Lefty…got a spare one of those ponchos? And are they fire-resistant? I already have the boots and umbrella…)
How about we get people jobs so that they can buy insurance, and then help lower insurance by stopping trial lawyers from suing for any reason possible (Tort reform!). Once that happens rates can go down and HEY LOOK!! Those with lower income can afford insurance again. You realize that the trial lawyers vote left right? The same people that sue every chance they get and raise prices for all also vote with you.
Although, I don’t agree with everyone that votes for the same person I do.
I love it! We get people jobs! Awesome. So… where are these jobs coming from? Only so many professionals are needed in any given area, all the factories have shipped overseas…. that leaves…. retail. Last I checked Wal-mart doesn’t pay enough to support a family, take vacations, buy insurance, and many of the other amenities we take for granted. So… what’s the plan? I am down!
Really? Did you just say that the only jobs available for the jobless are in retail outlets like Wal-Mart? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? I mean, really? At all? Because it doesn’t sound like it.
And you misunderstood him. We don’t get people jobs. People get their own jobs – it’s called personal responsibility.
…. well apparently, s/he thinks everyone has been working in factories all this time.
No. I think everyone has been working in low wage jobs this whole time. Its why so many people don’t have insurance.
Dude/tte – you said “all the factories have shipped overseas” as if that was the only possibility. What is this 1930?
What seriously, you expected him to list every single possible profession and employment possibility? To be honest, he’s right. When there aren’t jobs in your field, the usual place to go is retail. And once you get in retail, you get sucked in and it’s impossible to leave.
Oh yeah, I hear you man! I mean, there are just jobs ALL OVER. Company’s paying high salaries and benefits are just CRYING for help! /sarcasm
not trying to be an ass… but there was a story on CNN the other day about how companies have good openings but can’t find qualified people for them. can’t find it right now though.
Probably depends on where the company is. If it is a public school or info tech company in Boston, they are getting buried in applications. (A friend is applying for teaching jobs–one school told her they are now getting 500 applications per each job…used to get 200 per job).
On a lighter note, the current US jobless rate is only 10.2%! That means 89.8% of us have jobs, right? ;-P (Well, except for all the people who don’t get counted in the unemployment rate because they’ve totally given up or weren’t trying in the first place….)
… I think the phrase is “saved or created”
Nesting error?
Well, besides professional jobs like teacher, doctor, lawyer, which any given town can only support so much of, what other professional paying jobs are out there? Since you have a list handy of middle class jobs that are availible, please share.
Why does it have to be a professional job? Are we going to bus in migrant workers to do lower paying retail jobs?
oh it doesn’t. but if you don’t mind, list the non professional jobs that pay enough to provide a good standard of living.
You mean the people in poverty that have 2 cars, a cell phone, 20 inch dubs, 36 inch lcd tv, and are fat because they eat too much fast food?
That was almost like a list of jobs. I am beginning to think you can’t read. You just randomly pick a post of mine and respond with something random.
You were describing jobs where there is a low standard of living. That low standard here is higher than a huge portion of the world lives.
Is that to hard for you to understand? I know Karl Marx didn’t endorse it, but it’s still true.
Funny. I’m right smack dab in the middle of middle class, and the only thing on that list I have is a cell phone. You know a lot of people don’t have land lines anymore and have cell phones instead. Really, what’s the difference? Hell, with a land line, you can’t even get a phone for free which you usually can when getting cell service. I don’t really think it’s fair to hold having a cell phone against people.
I only have one car and a cell phone. My TV is so old, it belonged to Fred Flintstone.
But I agree on the cell phone point. I’ve had one since I was 19 and I got it because I did a lot of long distance driving. After I lived in Mexico (2003) I stopped having a land line. They seem so.. Non portable. Lots of people don’t have land lines anymore. They are less convenient. And you can get super cheap plans, even super cheap phones. I don’t think it’s a good comparison.
Many of the skilled building trades do, for example. Auto mechanics and IT workers generally do ok. Actuaries do quite well, although that would be considered a professional job, although not one people generally think of, as do other professions outside of the doctor/lawyer/teacher triad, like respiratory or physical therapists, paralegals, accountants, dental hygienists… the key being to learn a skill of some type.
Yeah, but do you think we can reach 100% employment with those jobs? And who is going to pay to train these people? They can’t even afford insurance now, much less cutting back work to attend college.
Sorry, thought you asked for examples of jobs that pay enough to provide a good standard of living?
Actuaries usually have a college degree in mathematics, as do IT professionals. Auto mechanics now have to have the equivalent of 2 years of college or trade school. Licensed plumbers and electricians, ditto. Dental hygienists and general construction work are about the only career that doesn’t require at least a year of post-high school trade or college training.
I’m fairly sure you have to have some training to be a dental hygienist, as far as that goes. Most of the skilled building trades have really good apprenticeship programs, though. The world needs heavy equipment operators, too — actually probably more than lawyers!
It also depends on where you live as to what constitutes a good standard of living on the money you make. The plant I work at has unskilled line worker jobs that provide a decent living for our area, even at $8-10 an hour.
Dental hygienists can get training either via college or apprenticeships.
And 8-10 dollars an hour would be starvation wages in the northeast…
Like I said, part of the country you’re in matters a great deal. I rather like where I live…..standard of living and all being so cheap….
So long as you don’t mind the big roaches and lots of barbecue!
But shouldn’t a ‘good standard of living’ include health care? My dental hygienist, like most people in small offices/businesses, doesn’t have health insurance and probably can’t afford it on $8-10/hour.
I just think this whole attitude that someone doesn’t deserve health care because they work at Macy’s incredibly mean-spirited. SOMEONE has to work at Macy’s.
Re actuaries: minimum BS in math, usually a Master’s, plus taking ten exams over several years — and they start okay and end incredibly difficult.
Mabsba, my company provides healthcare to every full-time worker, and since we’re a production/processing company, we don’t employ anyone part-time. In other words, if you want health insurance through us, you get it. I think my husband and I pay $300 or so a month for full 80/20 Blue Cross Blue Shield family coverage.
Didn’t say *your* company doesn’t. That’s great for *you.* But I was talking about retail workers, who are essential to our economy. Most are not offered the opportunity to purchase health insurance at a reasonable price. That’s all that I want. Because trying to buy it by yourself at the wages you cite would take at least a third of that income.
Again, it depends on where you live. My first job was in retail, and I’ve worked for several retailers before I got the job I have now. All offered affordable insurance that I could get on part-time wages. Granted, I was living at home at the time, but being able to afford insurance on 25 hours a week while going to school is nothing to sneeze it.
As they say in real estate, location location location.
Or timing, timing, timing. How long ago was that? We pay three times what we paid for health insurance ten years ago.
I worked for HEB from 2001-2005 and had insurance the entire time.
I’m not saying it’s possible outside of my little microcosm of life, but it does happen. Texas is generally known for being a good state to live in for things like insurance and cost of living.
P.S. buying insurance over state lines is extremely important to me. RIght now I’m insured through BCBS of Mississippi because that’s where my company is based. Compared to what I had with HEB, it SUCKS.
Most major retail chains will offer some sort of insurance. Almost none of them offer AFFORDABLE insurance. Starting in January, more than 40% of my gross income will go to my health insurance. And nobody in our company got raises this year, so that’s going to hurt my pitiful little paychecks even more. Retail employees get crapped on at every opportunity. And I get the GOOD insurance! Part time people can get expensive insurance that covers pretty much jack shit. This is not some tiny retail chain here. This is f’ing SEARS that does this to us.
And VG & mabsba–I’ve actually given serious consideration to going back to school to become an actuary.
I wanted jobs outside of the professional sector, which would include basically all the jobs you listed. Only need so many dentsists, lawyers, and accountants in any given place. What about everyone else?
You’re not going to earn a comfortable living without learning some type of marketable skill, is what it comes down to. Whether it’s a suit job or apprenticing in a building trade or taking a lowpaying job where you can train for a more advanced one, if you (an individual, not you in particular) don’t know how to, or learn how to, do something that’s in demand, you can’t expect to make more than unskilled-labor wages.
I will add that I think we do our high school students a disservice by 1) rarely training them in any useful vocational skills anymore and 2) indoctrinating them with the idea that the sole route to post-education success is to go to college. Some people would be far happier and more successful learning HVAC or hairstyling, and there’s little if any encouragement for the brighter kids to follow skill-based (rather than 4-year-degree based) career paths, regardless or their actual talents or interests.
*climbs off soapbox*
Ready for a real conspiracy theory?
I think in many ways our educational system is a way to keep people where they are. I can’t think of any job where you will not have to learn how to do it when you get there. It almost seems like we would be better off apprenticing and just learning a trade of our choosing, instead of paying tens of thousands of dollars for a piece of paper that gives us permission to go learn a job.
VNV, you’re not going to get much of an argument from me on that one. I don’t know whether it’s deliberate or just a crappy system, but it does seem to be true. You don’t actually learn how to practice law in law school, either, by the way. Not the practical aspects.
Ah ha! Back on good terms! I missed ya!
I just haven’t had much to say today.
VNV, I agree with you completely, although I’m with diss in that I don’t think it’s necessarily deliberate. It is a cycle that perpetuates itself, though. Kids grow up poor in a poor area and go to a poor school that has low expectations and doesn’t have the funding to give the kids the education they deserve. In turn, these kids end up doing what their parents did and get pregnant, or drop out, or never get a job, or turn to drugs and/or alcohol. And their kids end up learning the same thing. It’s not JUST the schools that cause this, but it is most certainly a big piece of the puzzle.
Hey douche, there are plenty of people WITH jobs that don’t have access to company insurance, and can’t afford private insurance.
BOOTSTRAPS! TORT REFORM! *frothfroth*
… and interestingly, it would be a **lot** cheaper to simply extend some form of rational subsidy to them.
We should **also** pursue tort reform because it would help reduce costs.
Instead, the Dems are generating an ever-more complex monstrocity that they don’t even really understand.
Hey everybody! Tort reform is going to fix health care!
Yippieee! Let’s all buy torts.
Oh! I love fruit torts! Especially ones with strawberries!
I meant the ones that come in shells.
Oh.
That’s ok, I’ll by the fruit ones. I’m sure they’ll work too! 
I am very disappointed. And I already have one of the kind that come in shells (although she’s hibernating right now).
*off to work and to seek chocolate tort* [sic]
I would like chocolate tort, please!
I second that.
Heh.
No, it would *improve* the system, specifically at the cost end.
If you allow yourself to think for a minute or two, you might comprehend this.
Funny, the only “solution” I ever hear the righties come up with is the tort reform thing. Or is that the only reform you’re actually interested in?
THE FLAG IS BELGIAN!!!1!!!!1!
Shhesh, you need all 3, the tort reform, the insurance reform and the monstrosity you don’t understand.
Hmm…. maybe Pelosi and Obama should be honest and explain how we need a monstrosity they don’t understand? Might as well be explicit that they are asking for blind acquiescence.
Tell me, though…. what purpose does the monstrosity serve, exactly? If it’s providing insurance to those who can’t afford it, there are cheaper, simpler, more direct ways to do that. They’ve mostly given up on doing much to control costs… what is the point of this beast, in your opinion?
It’s an attempt to copy the system of other countries where it already proved to work.
Really? Obama explicitly denied that it’s an attempt at a “European”-style healthcare system. Is he lying or do you have non-European countries in mind?
(Leaving aside the question of whether “being like other countries” is a valid goal in and of itself…)
Of course he denied that. He want’s to copyright “his” great idea, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a copy attempt.
Yes, once the right poisoned the term “European-style health care” with a lot of lies about how bad it is, it became an unsaleable idea. If that were the worst lie this administration tells us, it would be the best presidency ever.
Unfortunately, I don’t think they are lying. What we are being offered is a long long way from as good as anything in Europe or Japan.
Can I give you 40-50 links on how the Brits are fed up up with NHS?
We’re more just fed up with the queues and nurses/doctors that don’t care anymore. It’s a good system, but it needs a massive overhaul to bring it back to its glory days.
Without the NHS, I wouldn’t be able to afford my eye surgery. That’s not through lack of working, more through the surgery is hella expensive.
I don’t see the healthcare reform as a bad thing, but I guess that’s me being a Brit and having lived with it all my life. It might not work in America at all, being so large and having different laws per state and all.
There you nailed it on the head. I think you will find that most of the people who are against the current version of reforms proposed, are against it being federalized. Something that is against the Constitution, if anyone is honest about it.
And I don’t think anyone is against reform, we know it needs to happen. Not just in America, from what I can read.
How the hell are the states going to pull of health care? Missouri is slashing money out of its budget left and right just to be able to keep working. States that can’t raise the money will end up with lousy health care coverage, which will undoubtedly lead to doctors moving to states with greener pastures, not to mention citizens who can actually afford to move to another state for better health insurance. In the meantime, the poor residents of such a crapped out state will be stuck with whatever the state can spit out. That’s not a solution to keeping it out of federal hands.
And if it’s not constitutional, then we make it constitutional. We can amend that thing, can’t we?
“european-style” is a daft concept, since we have quite different solutions from country, to country here. :p
Danbala, I am glad it works for you. But as a much larger nation we MUST rely on Article 1, section 8, and the 10th amendment.
Meh.
As a MUCH richer nation , you shouldn’t have to spend twice as much of your GDp to get healthcare and have over half a million citizens having to file for personal bankruptcy because of medical bills. :p
Anyway. Have a solution where it’s managed on a state by state basis then, if the concept of a set fee (or no fee) per citizen is undoable on a large scale, and let the states work out who owes who what afterwards?
I agree, work it out state by state, I’ve been shouting that for a long time. If ND messes it up, SD will be where the people flee. Ect……..
But really Justa, who wants to be in EITHER Dakota?
Great, so they flee to the other Dakota, which means North Dakota ends up getting worse and worse. Making states compete like that will backfire.
But, it’s just the Dakotas Rando. Right? That’s what we’re talking about here? Bankrupting the Dakotas?
and if they go bankrupt, what are we out. like $3.50?
Hmmm.. Suddenly I’m not so sure about this. Three fiddy is a lot of money..
perhaps we should sell a dakota…perhaps dakota fanning?
How much do you think she’s worth?
million dollar movie star? most likely will become a hot slice in a few years? ….$7.35
All right, to Mexico it is!
Yeah, but she’s a child star which means she’ll likely end up anorexic, alcoholic, or on meth soon. I’ll give you $6.45.
thats why we sell her now, while she is still young tender and will cry when you slap her in the face with your penis
This actually made me LOL. bitter you are a disgusting troll. I love you.
Oh, sorry, I forgot that you are a pathetic troll. Please ignore my previous comment to this post, it was a slip-up. I try not to talk to blatant trolls. :p
Oh. It works like this. Ever taken a vacation? Ever taken a vacation with a group rate? Notice how the group rate saved everyone money? Same thing. Its not very hard to understand. Its the same as how retailers shut down all mom and pop stores. Mom’s toaster shop is requesting to have 50 toasters made at a given price to sell. Wal-Mart order 5 million toasters and says “we will pay this reduced price or we will go eslewhere”. Its cause they are buying so many. So… with a public option…. millions of people join together to make the overall cost of insurance lower. Its call buying in bulk. Duh. Do you understand now?
Buying what exactly?
First, you are speaking in the abstract, not about the monstrocity under consideration at the moment.
Second, the existing insurance system fits your abstract description just as well as a “public option” does. There is nothing that stops coops, employers, etc from getting “group pricing’ now.
Third, your explanation gets a significant point wrong : this isn’t about a group purchase of some identical item or particular service; insurance works by distributing *risk*.
I think you are the first person I have come across in weeks that understands what insurance is about. Risk distribution is what it is – not helping people, not making sure that everyone is covered, not public health. Those things are not what insurance is intended to address.
You can debate whether the government should be involved in those issues, but it’s ridiculous to expect the insurance industry to take care of them, or fix any of the problems in those areas.
First, the south doesn’t suck, at least not in ways that are enjoyable in marriage.
Second, I’m glad to see that you understand that insurance isn’t a free ticket to every cough and sniffle.
Third, do what you will, but not with the federal govco. It always fails the people.
Wow, you’d think with the government failing at everything that it does that our nation would’ve completely collapsed by now.
You’d think so. You’d be wrong, but you’d think so.
well everyone keeps saying that the goverment ( and as the goverment is the people , they keep saying we ) fail at everything all the time at everything, and started going broke the moment obama took office ( even before he did anything)
And lord knows, everyone is always right.
now goverment control of everything bad, but lets be realistic, the goverment at a federal level cant fail at everything all the time. or else the nation would of falling into chaos long ago.
No, no, Obama caused the stock crash last year simply by *running* for president. And he’s responsible for the bank bail out, too! icon_rolleyes.gif
you mean the bank bailout that bush started because of clintons mess ups that was a result of bush sr who was just doing as reagan ordered?
Actually, that was all my fault. My bads, sorry everyone!
-hugs and gropes a lil- is ok, bitter troll forgives you
Thank you bitter love. *is groped*
*bites*
Hey! Why didn’t my smiley face work? I thought you just had to put in the name?
I guess here you type in *roll* only change the * to :
so colonrollcolon
Yay!
Yay, yay!
Thank you, Charro…or do you prefer ‘charro’?
Either is acceptable.
Ok, seems you missed something. Always fails the people doesn’t mean always fails.
Second, typo. Change are to aren’t.
Ah, okay, that actually makes a difference. I still disagree, but I do see what you’re saying now.
justa bitter troll gotcha now, like rando politely disagrees…wait this is the interwebs and you disagree with me…YOU MUST BE WRONG BLA BLA BLA TROLL COMMENT TROLL COMMENT…sorry but its the liberal thing to do..BLA BLA
I just wish the “public option” could be organized and executed by a private company instead of having the Federal government involved.
Unfortunately current laws prevent that from happening.
Even if all of the companies in a particular industrial park could combine into one health insurance group to qualify for a large group rate, that would be awesome. It just doesn’t work that way right now.
It’s a shame that the coop concept wasn’t pursued in a serious way.
Hahahaha. Supporting monopoly. That’s cute.
Hahahaha…I don’t get it.
Having a private companys compete to cover those who would otherwise be covered by your tax dollars is somehow bad?
The idea behind insurance co-ops (which is what I was suggesting) is that you insure extremely large groups of people together under one policy. The sick and expensive to insure are balanced out by the large number of healthy, inexpensive to insure policy holders.
These large groups could be insured by multiple different insurance companies. Any company would be able to quote the policy, and obviously the most cost effective solution that provides the best coverage would be the ones chosen by the administrators of these large groups.
Just like in our current private system, each group may find better coverage by different companies based on risk factors and the types of insurance offered by each company, and whatever other factors they use to determine the price of premiums.
For example, a group of 500,000 people in the industrial sector may find the best rates and coverage with Insruance Company A, while a group of 500,000 office staff may find better rates and coverage with Insurance Company B.
Isn’t that cute?
Would that not end up costing the healthy people more than the sick people as far as premiums? I haven’t looked into coops, so I’m not really sure how they work.
It still ties coverage to employment or some other group, though – what happens to people who leave – or get kicked out of – a group? What happens to them if no group wants them to join because they will drive up the costs?
Furthermore, what happens when the pharmaceutical industry starts to see these big groups as the ultimate cash cows? I’m not talking about John who needs his statins or Ethel who needs her diuretic. I’m talking about the up and coming drugs, especially the biologics. They can cost up to $100,000 a year for one person, and each one is patented, so there will be no competition.
If the costs are not controlled, nothing we do to provide universal insurance is going to matter. The burden of the costs to all of society are going to sink us. All this hyperbole about the evil insurance companies is just a distraction. They are only a small part of the problem and a smaller part of the solution.
The free market created this problem, and I don’t see anyone other than the government big enough to solve it. I just wish they would. I keep hearing how the government is in the insurance company’s pocket, but I’ve seen that coat before, and I believe that’s big pharma’s pocket.
Complex because they don’t want anyone to understand it. It’s not about health care at all or taking care of people. It’s a government power grab.
Noo, don’t see evil everywhere you look.
*singsong* Someone forgot their tin foil hat today…
the tinman?
*whispers* No. n00bs. *hands Keith a Dunkaccino*
I guess I had that figured out, but I still had to make sure that it wasn’t the tinman! Cheerio!
The government power grab ended when Bush left.
Nope, it continues on…
as long as we have a government , it will be reaching for power it should not have in one way or another. Bush reached in one direction, Obama another, Clinton another, Bush Sr another, Reagan another…donno about jimmy carter…did he do anything? anyways…it was wrong for all of them, but hell, sometimes you have to do the wrong thing for the greater good
Yeppers to the first part of your post. Nopers to taking power to do things for the perceived “greater good”. Once they have that power, it gets harder and harder to take it back, it’s a slipperly slope we don’t want to go down. BOTH sides are doing it.
“A government big enough to give you what you want is big enough to take it away.”-Ben Franklin
Exactly!
” i love hookers”- ben franklin…and he was right , he did love them!
“Titties and beer.” – Ben Franklin
Oh wait, I think that was Rodney Carrington, but it’s still relevant, dammit!
“Hookers for everyone!” – Bill Clinton.
please, clinton was classy enough to call them “escorts”
Really? You mean Bill Clinton, right?
Funny how you propose no viable solutions, but are completely willing to mock. You are spewing how useless you are personally towards reaching a viable solution between people that disagree. Go back to you hate hole.
I did, but your mother was there, and I had to tell her to STOP stalking me! So I went to Dunkin Donuts for a delicious Dunkaccino and a cruller.
Did you poor the Dunkaccino on Train’s mom?
That’s his standard response. Give it some time, and you will have the honor of being called a rather amorous small mammal.
I earned the honor today. I feel valuable.
Yeah, it’s kinda like when you stood up to the school yard bully and all he can do is back away, screaming insults and threats.
Or just get whitty retorts that aren’t just insulting. Except today Ivan seems a little extra sensitive. I think it’s b/c I pissed in his Jiffy Pop and JAC pissed in his coffee.
No, I missed the coffee. All I have to do is appear, and actually have an opinion. Then I’m the anti-christ that he doesn’t believe in.
the cost of illustrating a valid point..thats how much
Valid? Oh yeah, the whole “death panel-kill gramma” thing was SOOOOO valid. *eyeroll*
heh…. yes, yes… you were programmed well.
Hey, I know… scream some more! And LOUDER. That will convince us all that you know what you’re talking about.
Wow, hypocrite much?
You certainly do. So why should you pick on him?
JAC, I’m going to ask you once more. Please stop trying to start shit with me. In the interests of trying to make the PK Irregular women happy, just ignore my posts.
Oh, there’s that double standard again.
You mean the “its ok to call myself a Christian and be an asshole to everyone” standard that you have set for youself? Yeah… we have been seeing that a lot lately… from you.
Funny, you only read parts of the Bible. Jesus talked specifically about shutting the mouth of the gainsayer.
You would love to try and use my faith to stop me from voicing my opinion. That would leave more room for your propaganda.
Actually, I have read the whole of the Bible. Thats why I know you are a hypocrit. Knowledge can be fun!
But yet you only apply parts of it when it suits you. That sir, is the ultimate hypocrite.
I would love for you to show me where I can’t stand up to people like you. You can’t.
VNV, you’re not helping. Leave it alone.
I wasn’t trying to help. I was making fun of justa because he’s such a laughable imbecile.
Imbecile? Standing up for individual freedom and responsibility is more like it.
But then again, you think Marxisim would actually work. Well, I guess it does, for the few elite.
The few elite are who controls the system now. So… you are still and imbecile. Thanks for trying though. Next?
So what happened to protecting the minority?
Just because it’s your ideals doesn’t mean you can just forget about it.
I don’t follow. I never said anything about protecting a minority. We need to protect the majority from the minority.
Sure, there are elite now. And there would be less under your world vision. I grant you that. Problem. Those elite would have a total mastery of those under them.
Right now, I am free to do as I want, so long as I don’t interfere with the rights of others. Yes, there are rules and obstacles along the way. But that’s life. And your Marxisim doesn’t change that.
Keep up the name calling. I actually count it an honor when you do it.
Whenever I see stuff like this it makes me smile. Over on our side of the pond, us Brits are laughing because AT LAST you guys get to understand the beautiful love/hate relationship that is a National Health Service.
God bless the NHS. Your epic waiting lists are where we make our friends.
Yeah, we Americans don’t have waiting list. Our insurance companies (if we are so lucky to have insurance) tell us immediately that they won’t cover the blood for our newborn’s transfusion or our hip surgery or our cancer treatment or….
The NHS is more fun. It’s like a game of chicken.
Step 1 – Realise you have a stomach-ache that won’t go away. Waiting list to get seen by a GP: about 3 months.
Step 2 – A week later stomach-ache has moved on to intense pain. Waiting list to get seen by a GP: about 3 days.
Step 3 – The next day your appendix explodes. Waiting list to get into surgery: about 3 minutes.
It pays to be REALLY ill.
I smell a sock.
I smell a porkupine and a dick.
I smell coffee!
And donuts?
So everyone who disagrees with you is a sock? Or are you smelling your own?
Eat me, fu(kweasel™.
Its cool man. Sometimes I feel like everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. It happens sometimes when you are very opinionated, which I am and you are.
And I disagree with you lots, but doesn’t make me an “idiot”, “puppet”, “kool aid drinker”, etc………
Just like you disagreeing with me doesn’t make you a “wanker”, “tool”, “ignorant” etc…..
It’s those that post with just blind hatred of things that are truely ignorant and idiots.
Tourette’s anyone?
STFUGTFOESADITOPASAP™
(I added a new section to it.)
..and rightfully so! Who the hell needs hip surgery anyway? People who actually spend money on such cosmetic surgery can blame noone but themselves!
You do realize that some cosmetic surgery is necessary and not really always elective. Now when some million dollar 90 year old men wants to give his 22 year old wife new Ta Ta’s yeah that’s kind of annoying. However it does feed into the economy.
Who exactly are you? The voice of reason?
Really? They do? I must be the luckiest guy in he country, ‘cuz I’ve never had anything similar to that happen. Nor have any of my relatives, thru 1st cousin. No 2nd cousin that I’m aware of, either.
You must be, because the insurance companies have been screwing people for years!
How have they been doing that? Examples…
By making dollar dollar bills yo!
OMG! That is soooooooo eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil!!
It is when it is swindled away from the middle and lower classes.
No one is swindling money, they are providing a service. Give me an example of how money is swindled?
Charging too much and then not providing the service offered.
Regulations. Create and enforce them.
But then they couldn’t dictate your lifestyle to you.
*did I say that out loud?*
Oh no! Whatever would I do?!
I agree. Regulations. Government Regulations. Create them and then enforce them. Its all I ask.
Yay!! We agree, so health care can stay in the private sector, it just needs some government oversight. That is all. Same with insurance.
Sure thing. But with -loads- of oversight. Hell, with enough oversight, we can call anything private. As long as it is not aloud to screw over people.
allowed.
You mean like the govt oversight in the NHS?
I never feel particularly easy about health care that’s for profit. You wanna earn your paycheck? Fine. Profiting off of the health and well-being of the people is frightening to me. And yes, I’m invoking the dirty liberal “all corporations are evil.”
If you want to talk about swindling the middle and lower class let’s talk about government-run lotteries.
Oh you will get no arguement from me. The lottery is a crock.
Completely voluntary, though, if generally regressive.
It’s a good way to get people who don’t contribute to the income tax to pay taxes, though.
Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.
Isn’t he talking about social security?
you mean socialst securtiy, if you take the money, clearly your a COMMIE
Government run lottery works too…
When it comes to people’s health and lives, yes, it is actually evil.
It has the potential to evil, there needs to be oversight, but it is still a service provided and there is nothing wrong with making a profit by providing a needed service.
How about pre-existing conditions? Oh well. Here are some links for you to peruse:
{http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,564501,00.html}
{http://www.fox2548.com/dpp/health/dpgo_woman_denied_health_insurance_rape_lwf_20091022_4181569}
{http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/21343449/detail.html}
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUgwxeZt-qc}
{http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7414442&page=1}
Lung cancer treatment in UK is ‘woefully inadequate’
{http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/lung-cancer-treatment-in-uk-is-woefully-inadequate-1813188.html}
Grandmother, 72, loses leg after hospital misdiagnosis
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6291601/Grandmother-72-loses-leg-after-hospital-misdiagnosis.html}
Plumber with shattered arm left horrifically bent out of shape has operation ‘cancelled four times’ (because he smokes)
{http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6869646.ece}
‘Doctors told me it was against the rules to save my premature baby’
{http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218927/Plumber-shattered-arm-left-horrifically-bent-shape-operation-cancelled-times.html#ixzz0TMUJD9Tp}
Question a doctor and lose your child
{http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211950/Premature-baby-left-die-doctors-mother-gives-birth-just-days-22-week-care-limit.html#ixzz0QcfNl6eX}
Daughter claims father wrongly placed on controversial NHS end of life scheme
{http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6823345.ece}
Sentenced to death on the NHS
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6156076/Daughter-claims-father-wrongly-placed-on-controversial-NHS-end-of-life-scheme.html}
Foreign surgeons flown to UK to cut waiting times ‘botched one in three operations’
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html}
Cruel and neglectful’ care of one million NHS patients exposed
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6092658/Cruel-and-neglectful-care-of-one-million-NHS-patients-exposed.html}
All from UK news papers.
STOP STALKING ME. Sonofabitch, I’m not crazy, you all see this, right? He’s responding snarkily to all my posts. I’m trying VERY hard not to let him provoke me, but I’m still a man, and the thread is about to snap!
And FYI what the fu(k does any of that have to do with AMERICAN insurance companies denying coverage? Are you really just stalking me?
I see it. Don’t feel bad. He does the same to me. Just wait till he starts making wild claims about things you have said when you clearly did not say them. And then he goes straight for childish insults.
Yeah, about that. Did you go back and read how arrogant your post was. And while you did not use the word “minority” you DID use that context.
No i didn’t. You are still wrong. Sorry pal.
Actually, you did. And people are laughing about your Rush Limbaugh ego.
Never mind the Obamsiah, he’s a beginner. All hail the VNVmessiah! *Blows trumpets*
I appreciate you fan worship. You may continue. I dub you court jester!
And secondly, who are these people? I swear you have imaginary friends in your head? Oh well… i guess it helps with your jestering routine. Carry on.
The only thing you dub is choking your chicken.
And trust me, there is an entire discussion topic of people of all sides of the spectrum laughing at your nonsense.
Did you just volunteer to choke my chicken? You are strange jester indeed!
A whole discussion topic? Now that is exciting. I hope you and all your imaginary friends enjoy that.
Oh, you wish. But you aren’t my type. Nor do I own a set of tweezers that small.
Doctors make mistakes in every country under the sun. It happens. Using anecdotal or limited evidence to try to prove that an entire countries health care system is flawed is laughable.
You have to examine solid or wide ranging statistics to get any real feel for the subject at hand, using anything less as “proof” is flawed at best, intellectually dishonest at worst.
You mean, like posting youtube videos of people claiming to be denied?
I’m just reading the papers of a country that has the system that is proposed for mine. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. From reading the papers, it seems the sentiment in the UK is that the NHS is failing.
So how many links do I have to give you? It’s not just “oh the Dr made a mistake.” A lot of them talk about how the rules of the system screwed them over. Like denied necessary surgery for a broken arm, simply because the man smokes.
People being denied for healthcare in your country is evidence of intention on behalf of the insurance companies. An F-up is an F-up. I agree its not ideal evidence, but I suspect stats on denial of coverage are hard to get hold of for obvious reasons.
“Like denied necessary surgery for a broken arm, simply because the man smokes.”
Yeah read about some surgeries asking patients to give up smoking for a bit before major surgery, due to the decreased success/increased hostpital time, and that people can theoretically be denied surgery if they dont stop smoking before op. You’re right this is bad, which is why so many people are p**sed off with it. An exception rather than the rule though, most health authorities in the UK dont do this, and I suspect its very rare in those that allow this.
I’m not claiming the NHS to be ideal, but most the time, its far preferable, and far cheaper for *everyone* than the USA way. No, majority sentiment amongst British people is that we are happy to have the NHS, I can promise you that. Dont mistake people pointing out its faults for a damnation of the entire system.
As for “NHS” failing, we face the same problem as everyone else – increasing technology leading to increased costs. Its a worry, but it affects private arguably more than public.
Great, you have a legit opinion. One that I respect. But there IS a lot more than that one case. From what I am reading, it’s not just quit smoking in order to make the surgery work. But rather quit smoking because we don’t allow it. (I hate smoking, btw. Did I mention HATE smoking?)
Ok, so now posting links as a response to your links is stalking?
It has everything to do with what govt run health care is like. Worse than all the crap you keep spouting about our health care now.
I have about 40-50 more links, should you want some informative reading.
Feel free to post as many non-relevant links as you like. n00bs asked me for examples of insurance companies screwing people. I provided links for him. YOU are just trying to get me to blow up at you. This will be my last response to anything you say, so feel free to be as douchie as you need to be to make you feel superior.
It’s totally relevant, and that is what cheeses you. You promote govt health care as an answer to the failings of insurance companies. I gave you examples of how govt health care failed just as bad, or worse.
Government regulations regarding pre existing conditions can be put into law without creating a whole government run healthcare scenario. WHY do they have to take over the whole thing?! This things can be regulated like many other aspects of the private secter are regulated. Does the government have to eat up the whole country to make sure everything is fair? Can you imagine where that will eventually lead? Think about it, please.
Arg there is so much stupid on this page it hurts my eyes…. Lets see if some statistics can clear this up.
Cost of healthcare per person (WHO stats):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/aug/12/nhs-us-healthcare-obama
Note: US spends well over twice as much per person as our “socialised” system in the UK. But you have higher GDP per capita so follow the link a bit further and we come to:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tsI9mtBAHd84DHdNQhO17Pg
Now the US pays almost twice as much on healthcare as a % of GDP.
***In other words, by all paying together towards a public system, we each pay less, and everyone has coverage. How hard is this to comprehend??***
Admittedly, US is much less healthy as a nation, but twice the price unhealthy??
(and yes, need at least a moderately well managed public system)
Stats on who has the best health care are very tricky, precisely because of the baseline healthiness difference, although it should be possible to do comparisons of similarly rated people and on e.g. same operation success rate, but frankly I cant find any comparisons and am bored of looking (although I believe there was a study by the UN on health care effectiveness, which rated US very poorly, and UK fairly well), so lets just follow the above links a bit further:
http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat/EN_WHS09_Table1.pdf
US has higher infant mortality rate (in all categories – at birth, ages 0-1, age <5), and lower life expectancy than UK. Both these are affected by poorer health and by health care effectiveness, but the point still partly stands – US health care does not produce better results that our "socialised" system in the UK.
I am so glad I can rely on the NHS, and so glad I dont have to pay for it privately (FYI I am an engineer on an OK wage, not a drop out). NHS is win.
NOw, what did Ivan just say about socks?
That you are a sock?
He’s like Mankind from the WWE. His finisher involves Mr Socko!
I wonder how much of the money spent on healthcare in the US goes into lawyers and insurance companies? If the US had a NHS equivalent, all that money could go into providing the best healthcare in the world. Or back into people’s pockets.
That WHO study is over 10 years old and doesn’t take into account some important data. Politifact DOT com has a really good breakdown on the WHO study that shows how a very slight change in the way the information is interpreted leads to wildly different results. That tired meme about the US being 37th in the world’s healthcare is one of the things it addresses.
I’m sure you’re right. Don’t know how the health care system compares. And I’ve been fortunate enough never to have been in hospital, and sometimes wonder what I could’ve done with all the tax money I’ve paid over the years to fund other people’s health care. But when something big eventually goes (as it will, now that I’ve tempted fate by saying how healthy I was) I’m glad the experience will not be made worse by wondering if I need to sell the house to pay for it…
Your personal experiances do not reflect the multitude. It just shows you see no further than beyond people you know. Its very…. limited of you.
well said, VNV
Exaggerating a few cases to change the majority fits VNV quite well.
You don’t even know the difference between majority and minority so stfu.
Actually, I do. You were the one playing both side. As usual.
No you don’t. you proved it last night. To the whole world wide web. And i loved every moment of it. I am actually still riding high on the rediculousness of your attempts last night. It was great. Please…. do it again for me?
you two should start your own VnV v. JaC blog, it’d be a hit, i’m sure
It would get old quick considering the thrashing I would give him on a daily basis.
Sorry VNV, but you are on your own when it comes to this wing-nut. It is impossible to be rational when dealing with the irrational.
I agree. But boy is it fun to watch him to pretend to make points. Oh well.
Oo! Ask him how old the earth is, and ask him if he believes the fossils were planted by satan to confuse us. Hilarity will ensue!
He doesn’t know enough words to answer that question I am afraid. We are still working on his reading comprehension.
Oooooooh, the wonder butt hurt twins are having a party!
And V, the only thrashing you do is stroking your ego.
he thrashes his ego?
They were hiding behind hay bales,
They were planting in the full moon
They had given all they had for something new
But the light of day was on them,
They could see the thrashers coming
And the water shone like diamonds in the dew.
Oh, but Mabsba: They (insurance companies) also have a fun game they play amongst themselves, which they like to call “appeal”. They love to watch while patients jump through the hoops they require: patients spending their own money to get 2nd opinions; getting all doctors to submit records, tests, and letters on their behalf . . . insurance drones (oddly without the most basic of medical educations or background) all the while giggling while they deny you yet again, based on nothing more than an index with conditions and a “covered” and “not-covered” answer key, the very same index in which they looked up your condition BEFORE they (pointlessly) asked you to jump through dozens of hoops.
They have a (useless) appeal beyond that, too. That’s typically where the patient writes a letter to a physician that’s in charge of the insurance company’s appeal board, the final medical naysayer, who’s not exactly basing his opinion on medical necessity, now is he? Given that he’s collecting a salary from the insurance company, this doctor is not exactly neutral, and making purely a medical decision.
Waiting list-schmaiting list. I’d rather wait than have no hope of treatment at all, like so many people in this country.
Is the hearse supposed to be some sort of commentary on the supposed “Death Panels” or was that just the cheapest car he could find?
a hearse is a very expensive car, dont be fooled. he spent good money for a custom job that could of been STOLEN BY THE IRS and given to WELFAIR WHORES
I’ve never tried to buy a hearse, so I have no idea how much they cost.
Kind of off-topic, but did anyone see The Daily Show last night? Jon did a HYSTERICALLY funny Glenn Beck riff. Dead fu(king ON. Go to thedailyshow dot com and look for the 11/3 project clip. It’s 8 1/2 minutes of OMG.
You talking about the diagram on the chalkboard? Yeah, I saw that, and was crying I was laughing so hard.
“…The communists who want to socialize your Nazism…” had me on the floor.
(And should I change my name to something anti-EWAdams as well? *wants desperately to be in with the in-crowd*
Only if you truly want to. And want something bad to happen to EWAdams. (Personally I don’t wish him ill, I just don’t want him to have internet access anymore because he annoys me.)
But Yay to peer pressure!
Yay! I’m original, just like everybody else!
As much as I’d like to, I can’t blame this LOL on EWAdams.
we should find the bastard that made this “LOL” and started this flame war, and beat the PISS OUT OF HIM
lol!
Oh, I think we can let it go…..this time….
No! We have to teach this “Grimmiekins” person once and for all!
*Grabs baseball bat from under the bed* Long as I don’t get any piss on me, I’m all for that! >:)
mina use to date R Kelly?
No, I’m too old for him. Oh, and EWWWWWW!
Clearly, stickers on a car cost over 1 trillion dollars of other people’s money. Man, the guy driving that car must be such a hypocrite. I mean, spending his own money on his own things so he can voice his own opinion. I mean, it’s just like the health care bill, in that way where it really isn’t at all. But still.
Fu(kweasel™.
since when is the f.uck word censored? On failblog it was allowed to say till a couple months ore so.
Apparently it’s not. If you scroll up and read the rant by Champagne and Gunsmoke he’s able to use it several time.
I can’t read that twice. My hair blew back from the hate coming from my computer screen. Not a good look for me. Here, have a Dunkaccino!
I got more rhymes than there’s cops at a dunkin’ donut shop
mmmmmmmmmmmmm, donuts….
Sure enough, I got props
From the kids on the hill
Plus my mom and my pops….
Ok, I’ll bite, what’s a Dunaccino???
It’s a coffee that Dunkin Donuts makes. It has chocolate in it. It’s actually more like a mocha latte, but Dunkaccino rolls off the tongue better, I guess.
And it’s cheaper than Starhucks!!! Oh wait I told you to call it Fox News, man… **puts on hypocrite hat and stands in corner**
Oh! Kind of like a Mochasippi from CC’s! I love those things. You get all your caffiene and sugar intake for the day from one handy and tasty source!
you can use it, but your post will be censored until someone at PK reads it and either deems it “ok” or “not ok”. if “not ok” it will never see the light of day. if “ok” it will pop into existence in about 5-10 minutes.
Is that the only word the National Barack Channel allows you to use?
Yeah. He should use cop-out, arogant, or minority! Because…. well… those are the only tricks you have in your basket.
As opposed to your Marxist propaganda?
$poken like a true capitali$$$t!
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil.
capitalist.
oh i forgot to add propaganda to that list. Thanks!
That should be the first word out of your mouth, as you use it so often. But then again, you can’t deceive the masses when you admit it.
hehe. look at you pretending you know words. So cute!
Look at you, unable to come up with a decent response.
Look at me still talking when there’s Science to do.
When you’re dying I’ll be still alive…
Alive.. And forced to live..
I, I will survive…
Alive….
With no… relief…
Oh VNV, I truly love you.
The love is mutual! You keep on playin’ my song!
Are you on ICHC?
I look at the lols but I don’t much say anything there. Why? You got something goin’ on over there?
No I meant do you have a profile.
Yes, I have something going on.
Yeah. I got a profile. Same name. Talk to meh!
I just friended you.
Yay! Now I have 2 friends!
Good job. Now check your messages.
Is everyone that does not agree with you a fu(kweasel? I am sorry you are such a jealous small minded person.
I’ve come to consider it a compliment.
Finally something current.
True dat.
Now, if only it were funny
“Have you ever dreamt of killing all the stupid people? Not just the unintelligent ones, but the ones that don’t know anything about anything, and yet have to spill their opinions on everything?”
Yes I do, on a weekly basis. What are you quoting from though?
Hmm, a controversial american “artist”
I still don’t know who you’re refering to. There are several out there who fit that discription.
Called Boyd Rice
I’ll have to look him up. I’ve never heard of him.
Don’t!
Um… ok… That bad huh?
I know you’re gonna look him up anyway, but don’t say I didn’t warn ya!
Probably, but your response has made me think twice about doing so while at work. I’ll just do it when I get home if I remember.
*googles*
Oh mai.
how come they never post my funny ones?
now i look bad cause this is preachy, i never thought it would make it up here, it made me chuckle when i made it….but really FUNNY should be up here, not a preachy,not mine or anyone else’s
Again, I have to ask, did you expect anything less? If you make a preachy one, it’s almost certain that’s the one that will make it up. It’s ok though, I’m sure most people realize this is a fluke.
We’re all still busy arguing, but when we get done, we’re coming after you!! ARRRRRRRRRRR!!
ME???!?!?!?! You can’t argue with someone who refuses to state her opnion!
LETS GET HER!!!
*blends into crowd* Yeah, Get her!
“Get her!” That was your whole plan, huh, “get her.” Very scientific.
I never said it was a GOOD plan. I’ve never claimed to be a tactical genius. Blending in the background has usually worked for me in the past though.
I was just playing Mina. As Ivan noticed, it was just a way for me to make my weekly Ghostbusters reference. I can’t help myself.
Ghostbusters reference win!
where are all the LOL’s about ghostbusters saving kittens from ghosts, calling them heros?
Kitten, I think what I’m saying, is that sometimes, shit happens, someone has to deal with it, and who ya gonna call?
VNV….are you a god?
Yes!!!
…well…then…DIE ANYWAYS!!!-throws lighting out of a can-
Well now I see what lying got me.
*ends up hanging off of a the ledge of a skyscraper*
Winston was wrong then. *shakes head sadly*
WTF, how the hell did I miss that?!?!!?
I sneak em in there whenever I can. Its a talent.
I still should have caught that. Apparently my brain has decided it’s done working for the day.
Its friday. You are allowed.
Holy crap! It IS isn’t it?
*does happy dance* And it’s almost time to go home! Yay!
T minus 67 minutes.
95 for me. C’est d’accord. I see a large bottle of wine in my near future.
Of course no-one mentions the real & truly best country in the world to live in, Canada. Socialized meds have been around here for as long as i can rember. Only the greediest of ppls would be against such a humanist thing. Funny too how the loudest voices come from those who can easily absorb such a miniscule expense.
Meh, we are all doomed anyway so why care?
The problem isn’t really the expense, although we do have a huge deficit right now that needs to be dealt with, the problem is putting more and more power over our lives into the hands of the federal government. We aren’t used to that here in the US. As a matter of fact it is against everything this Republic was founded on.
I’ve lived in four countries. Not just visited, but lived; working, paying rent, bills, shopping, taxes and involving myself in day to day life. Three of those (including my country of birth) have a National Health system. NOTHING scares me more than the thought of getting sick in the USA under this hideously expensive, over-servicing, privately dictated health system where an accountant can make the decision whether I get treatment over and above immediate emergency care…
As far as paying taxes for a National Health system whether or not I want to “opt in” – there are a dozen areas my taxes go to I would prefer they did not. So what? You can’t have an equitable 1st world infrastructure on an inequitable 3rd world tax regime..
Since we’re into examples and counter examples, my own: When people in Australia we’re bitching that the cost of a hospital birth had gone from $400 to $450, a friend in the US had to second mortgage her house to pay for the $50,000 required by her hospital over and above her health insurance, because her baby was 6 weeks premature. Yeah it’s a wonderful system…
Bravo man! Thanks for sharing your experiance!
No one ever claimed that the US system was fair and equitable for morons.
You are out of line there. There ARE problems in the US health care system. And having a premie doesn’t make one a moron.
That said, FEDERAL Govt run health care is in total conflict with Article 1, section 8 of the Constitution. State level is another ball park entirely.
Well, right off the bat, Get sounds like a moron — his argument basically boils down to jingoism. But you’re right, his friend isn’t necessarily a moron, though I suspect once we find out the details of her situation my initial suspicion will turn out to be correct.
I’m not so sure that you can guarantee moron-icity as a cause for that friend’s situation. Because the main reason for bankruptcy among American citizens (as opposed to companies or other organizations) has been major medical bills. So long as an insurance company can drop a client because they have ‘maxed out of their coverage’ for a given condition, this sort of situation is going to occur. Yes, there are controllable factors which can increase the risk of premature birth. However, the vast majority of premature births in the USA do not have obvious causal factors.
It looks like I assumed too much with my initial post, so, for the record, let me be clear — I am not making any connection between Get’s friend’s debt and the details of her medical condition. It doesn’t matter whether it was because of a preemie, a car accident, or her falling off a roof — my guess is that it’ll turn out that Get’s friend didn’t have insurance, or was living paycheck to paycheck, or was in some other situation that caused the emergency.
I’m also not so sure that medical bills are the main cause of bankruptcies overall. See this paper — they looked at Delaware bankruptcy filings in 2003 and found that medical bills, job loss, etc. weren’t major indicators by themselves. Inadequate savings and poor financial planning were much stronger indicators; it was just the shock of a large bill or a job loss that put them over the edge.
I do agree with you that the boomer, post-boomer and Gen X folk appear to not have learned the lessons of the Great Depression, judging by the amount of debt that many have taken on. But there are a lot of folks who do their best, and still end up living a life of quiet desperation.
Since I’m not perfect, I can’t blame someone who gets in a bad situation for one bad choice followed by a medical disaster.
It’s not a matter of blame at all; I’m just analyzing the problem. It’s irresponsible to make a decision any other way, no?
Look at all those failed mortgage adjustments — most people whose mortgages were adjusted to avoid foreclosure went right ahead and defaulted again a few months later. It turned out that, while abusive lenders were part of the problem, basic financial irresponsibility was a bigger part.
So you have $50K in the bank for an unexpected medical bill? We would have been freaking homeless if we hadn’t had insurance when our son was 10 weeks premie. Fortunately we had insurance, but what if we had lost the job we had the insurance through while pregnant? Then, oops, pre-existing condition and no insurance. (And, if you don’t know, Cobra has a time limit.)
We always have money in the bank, but who has *that* kind of money in the bank? You always fall back on the ‘they must have done something wrong’ argument. (“my guess is that it’ll turn out that Get’s friend didn’t have insurance, or was living paycheck to paycheck, or was in some other situation that caused the emergency.”)
I am one of the first to criticize people’s bad choices, but sh*t happens. Just because it hasn’t happened to you doesn’t mean you should assume everyone else is a screw-up.
(Guess my sister was lucky, her pregnancy only went $10K over insurance. They were able to pay off on a schedule and didn’t have to remortgage their house.)
Don’t be fooled.. COBRA does NOT help the pre-existing clause.
VG, about premature births and infant mortality rates in America:
I read something on a crawler on (Fox? MSNBC???? I really can’t remember) the other night that said that our infant mortality rates have been linked to things like fertility drugs, increase in C-Sections, premature inductions, and all of the stuff we do to ease childbirth in this country as opposed to letting it happen naturally.
I’ve had two C-Sections (and thank God I had the second one….they told me had I tried to have him naturally there would have been REALLY bad things happen….), and I can anecdotally vouch for problems with baby’s breathing due to the airways not being cleared in a natural birth. It eventually goes away, but the pediatrician told me that it probably wouldn’t have happened had he been a natural birth. Something about going through the birth canal prepares both the mother and the baby for life outside.
Have you heard anything about our rather lazy view in this country of the birthing process (“OMG I don’t want to go full term….that will ruin my vacation plans!”) being a major cause in infant mortality and premature births?
I think I heard the same ‘crawler’ on NPR, believe it or not! But there is probably some truth to connections with fertility drugs–multiple babies are usually born too early and too small. Inductions are usually done only if the kid is overdue, or the mom is going into toxemia (can kill her AND the kid). Scheduled birthing or c-sections for social reasons is just plain old stupid. A c-section is a life-saver in many cases, and a health saver in some…but also major abdominal surgery, with more risks in most cases than labor and delivery. Most cases…
I suspect the obesity epidemic (which I have read has at least partial causality from the additives in plastics: soda bottles and can lining versions) may also have a factor in the premature rates.
But I am certain that our insane high rate of teenage pregnancy has a large factor, also. Bitch all you want about Europe’s morals, health care and politics, but they do not have anywhere near our rate of teenaged mothers. And under-aged mothers have 1) poor health habits, 2) denial about being pregnant, and often 3) immature reproductive organs, all of which increase the risk of poor outcomes for the infant.
/rant
—-
How did I get up on this soapbox, anyway? Can someone give me a hand off, please?
*offers gentlemanly hand*
Thank you kindly, sir!
Due to a broken pelvic bone in childhood that didn’t heal quite right, my mother had to have a c-section for me, my brother, and my sister. The scar tissue inside her ended up being a big issue and she had to have surgery to have it all cut out of her (or whatever they do to scar tissue). It’s a useful tool when necessary, but it’s not the best idea otherwise.
Having spent ten weeks in a neonatal ICU, I have seen much of this, and VG hit most of the causes, but left out drug babies. I would say that the order should be: multiple births, teenage mothers, drug babies and obesity (causes gestational diabetes).
May I add that no ethical doctor would deliver a baby early for anything but medical reasons? But also that you can always find unethical people in every profession.
And my rant: over half the babies in our state are born to unwed mothers, many very young, and a big cause of that is religion — “Oh, no, I didn’t use birth control, it’s a sin.” Of course, their religion also forbids premarital sex…. Or they are home-schooled by fundamentalist who teach abstinence-only, which works so well!
Okay, would someone else like the soapbox?
*offers mabsba a hand down*
Next?
*steps up onto the soapbox*
ICE IS FROZEN WATER!!! IT’S SHINY AND USES THAT TO LURE US TO A SLIPPERY DEATH! DOWN WITH ICE!!!
*runs in terror* Oh Max you have foretold our doom!!
a world where hockey evolved from man????
Well since it should be fair and equitable for everyone…. I agree with your point that changes must be made!
Wow. Perhaps you should return to the country of your birth, the US being so scary and all. Then you can enjoy your national health care system. Sorry about your friend having to get a second mortgage. I would have thought her friends, family, and kind hearted liberals would have helped her with the bills. Ah, that’s right, then you would have been spending your own money. You are a wonderful liberal. I’ve got a second mortgage, gimme some money.
Yeah, because everyone has friends & family with $50,000 to spare to help with hospital bills. Wow, we liberals sure are bad people wanting to help everyone. What are we thinking? Everyone should be left to whatever life deals them, and if they get screwed, who cares? They’re not you after all. Righties like you make me wish conservatives didn’t exist.
Yeah, like I had $40,000 to take care of a second mortgage, yet I do. Its called working, paying off your bills and not expecting someone else to do it for you, and not being petulant when other people don’t do what you think they should do. Its called personal responsiblity. How could anyone be left to get screwed with so many compassionate liberals around to help? How? Because liberals always expect somebody else to pay, to provide the jobs, to serve in the military, to do the things adults should do. Liberals are always complaining about what everyone else should do, it never about what they themselves should do. We all have hospital bills, accidents, sick relatives, and tragedies. You want to help someone? Get a job and help them. With your own money.
Liberals ALWAYS do these things, huh? Gross generalizations don’t usually fly around here, bud. I believe in personal responsibility, but there are people out there who do need help, and I think it’s sick to just say “if they took responsibility they’d find a way to get through it.” That’s horse shit, and it’s an excuse to turn your back on people who need help just keep your money. If you don’t have the resources to help people, fine. Very often, I *don’t* have the resources to help people. But people who CAN help people SHOULD. And you can’t just say that anyone who is in a bad money or life situation just didn’t try hard enough or doesn’t have a job. That’s completely not fair AND wrong.
Okay, this is a bit off-topic, but am I the only one who thinks of a swastika when seeing Jim’s avatar?
PS Since Jim apparently is not aware, many liberals are/have been in the military; five in my immediate family alone.
bitter troll cant see them from the work computer….is it really bad? D&D jim man, is you a evil nazi?
There is nothing more rare in the military than a liberal. And no, youre not the first to point out it looks like a swastika – liberals love to insinuate that anyone who disagrees with them is a nazi. President Bush, a decent and good man, was painted with that brush for years. It really infuriates them when they discover that nazi were socialists and nazi beliefs are so close to Obama’s and their own.
This has got to be the most wrong paragragh I have read in a minute. I thought it was a clever joke until I saw his other posts. jim, I am glad you have your world view. It makes me feel oh so much better about believing as I do. Thank you.
V, not starting an argument, but what I think you miss is that the Nazis started out as a Socialist movement, then went awry. And it seems that all the Socialist movements do. As you pointed out in one of the many Thesis you have published here on PK. What Lenin did, Vs what happened when Stalin took over. And so on…..
And not every one is inclined to write a doctorate on a comments page explaining the depths of it all.
A lot of movements have started out with some socialistic implications. I think its later on that historians decide which movements they don’t like and then find ways to group them together. Its easier to paint a broader stroke of “evil” if all evil things are in common.
VNV for once we agree. I think trying to compare Socialism to Nazism (which was actualy a form of Nationalism) is not the best aspect. (I was going to make an analogy that would pi$$ off the socialist, but decide not to Troll today).
Good for you. I had one for the capitalists as well, but since we are playing nice, I will leave it alone. ….For now!!! Bwahahaha!!…. hoo!
That’s my point too. But that it always seems to migrate to the worst kind of govt.
Sure. But I’m asking politely, when has it ever worked?
Some of Europe is trying it in a moderated form now, but it’s having limited success, and there seems to be an undercurrent of turning away from it.
Keep in mind, V, that I’m all for a lot of the basic ideas, just not on a national level. All the stuff about police, fire, garbage pickup, ect…. being socialist, not so. Local communities Vs national Govt. Though I will play the Devil’s advocate and admit that even homeowners associations get greedy with power.
I guess I see localism as a way to regulate govt the way you see govt as a way to regulate corporations.
Just because something has not worked doesn’t mean one should not have the courage to try again.
The ultimate goal for the planet should be a pollution free world where everyone was capible of feeling safe, and having food, clothing, and shelter. Until the final goal is realized, we will always have the same problems we have now. And to think its not possible is a cop out. It may not be easy, and there may be failures along the way. But every choice we make should further lead us in that direction. And if we all have to make sacrifices then so be it. Because we aren’t doing it for ourselves. We are doing it for people 50 generations from now. We don’t inherit the planet from our parents, we borrow it from our children.
I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, but reading this made me think — have you ever read “The Giver”?
Didn’t think you believed in cop outs?
And let me say, I don’t see that we can’t do the same things without taking the chance of some moron becoming the head of said Govt. After all George Bush got elected. Among many along the way.
As a former Trekkie, I just don’t see Starfleet never being corrupted.
And something you don’t understand about me. I have 5 kids, 3 of which are special needs. I would bet I’m more eco friendly than the average 2 kid, tree hugger family. I’ve become THE master at scavenging things, and reduce, reuse……
Nope. I haven’t. Any good?
Also, as polite as I can say this. I think you have NO clue how much tech has changed in the last 20 years. How big a difference power consumption is, say in a fridge. How much cleaner cars burn now, ect…..
Well thats awesome justa. It takes a special kind of person to have the patience it requires to live like that.
Morons will happen. Its mathematically impossible. And as a current and forever Trekkie ((specifically DS9)) I have no doubt parts of Star Fleet would be corrupted, but those are challenges we just have to face. We are on this rock together, like it or not ((not you specifically but all peoples)) and the only way to make things right is to work together.
Ooooh, yes! It’s a fairly quick read as it’s actually a “young-adult” book, i.e. “one of those books they make you read in school, did this one come in between Gatsby and The Outsiders?”
But it’s very, very good and raises some interesting questions regarding what happens if we achieve that goal. Ok, I found about the first half on Google books, here.
To clarify, one possible answer to the question of what happens if we achieve that goal.
I am very aware of the last twenty years of tech changing. I hang out on ICHC remember? We are all lost. But I am not sure what energy consumption has to do with cooperation and progress. I mean, I do, just not in that connotation.
to prove his point, bitter troll will now light this car on fire..dont worry bitter troll works with him, he’s a jerk- grabs a gas can-
And when that moron gets in charge, all the well meaning you have will hit the pot.
And like you LOL, there WILL be blood on the shores. But in a much larger level when it’s a global corrupt govt. I mean think about what YOU have said about Obama, never mind the wing nuts. There will never be a way to get rid of morons. Or corrupt people.
But knowing that, we still have to move forward. Thats all I am saying. Stagnation is not an option. It does too much damage to too many people.
Power consumption, as a response to leaving a clean environment to our children. (I have 5 of them, remember)
Oh, and I got a call from Starfleet. They told me to tease you about the courage to try thing. Spock said “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
He also said “The good of the many outweigh the good of the few.”
I agree. Stagnation IS NOT an option. But I don’t see the answer to the house fire as giving the arsonist a map of abandoned homes.
Yep. He made a personal choice. No one ordered him to do that. *golf claps*
We all must make a personal choice; to live for ourselves today, or to help make tomorrow for everyone.
I DECLARE THAT THE COMEBACK OF THE DAY!!
And no, it was not just Spock’s “personal choice”; as a “Trekkie”, you should know it was the professed philosophy of a culture, of an entire planet.
Nayou, sorry. No it wasn’t. I don’t recall any episode, series or book where Vulcan’s were throwing themselves in the line of fire.
Spock knew it was the only answer. And it was an individual choice.
I think that “logic” dictates that the good of the many outweigh the good of the few. And he and his people were all about the logical.
Oh, no you di-int!
Please visit memory-alpha.org and look up “vulcan philosophy”.
Funny, that logic often got corrupted. I seemed to notice that it was hanging around Kirk that made Spock overcome the bias of his own culture. Row, row, row your boat….
Yes. I did. And some blog that upholds your point of view is just that….. And yes some are trying to make that seem like what it was, to suit thier point of view now. But it hasn’t been in the past. And I’m leaving it at that. It’s one thing to make a joke, another to get in a pissing contest over who’s phaser is bigger.
And like I pointed out. The Vulcan’s were in as much a need for the human culture as the Humans were in need of the Vulcan.
How are you going to use a quote from Spock to try to make a point, and when you get some counter point information about spock, you try to discredit spock? Bad form!
Spock’s half human, therefore he sucks! Nuff said.
I wasn’t discrediting Spock, but rather the way his personal choice was twisted into a different ideology.
Spock made an emotional choice, one where emotion and logic agreed.
And one might even argue he had already signed on for “Search for Spock” and had no fear of actually getting hurt.
“I think that “logic” dictates that the good of the many outweigh the good of the few. And he and his people were all about the logical.” – The scary thing with this is WHO gets to decide what is GOOD for the many? What if the many decide it’s good to oppress the few, like in some cases in the past? You see how that doesn’t always work?
Nothing always works. Thats why you dare to try.
Besides, I read the thing wrong. It was Scotty…. :p
CUAE: Not really a “blog” upholding my “point of view”. It’s the Star Trek Wiki.
At times they were in need of an injection of human emotion into their philosophy, but their logic held up.
My interpretation of Star Trek canon stands, too: The Vulcan philosophy referred to earlier was more widespread than just Spock’s “personal choice”.
Uh, yeah, hopping in here late, but Starfleet did have corruption in it, as evidenced by the framing of Cpt. Kirk in Star Trek VI by Starfleet officers opposed to peace with the Klingons. Thank you.
Scotty belongs on a whole different lol. Now this one is ruined….
BTW, an aside on your assertion they (Vulcans) needed humanity’s influence:
Only I wasn’t twisting anything. It wasn’t just a personal choice! I’m trying to find TOS quotes; can’t find them right now, but here:
Enterprise episode, “The Council”:
Row, row, row your boat. The Vulcan’s needed the Human’s emotions as much as the Human’s needed the Vulcan’s logic.
Self sacrifice as a principle is one thing. I still don’t see them killing 20 people every time 25 had a need for quarters. They did, after all, use “logic.” Not blind foolishness.
And even in philosophy, you still have to make the choice to follow it.
OMG, dance much?
I’m making the very good and well supported point that the philosophy extended far further afield than just one half-Vulcan, half-human person! And still you can’t admit it. Yes, philosophy is not ALWAYS adhered to, but in this society, it was well interwoven throughout their society’s framework, even if on occasion, some misbehaved.
And, really, I don’t see where or why you keep insisting that it necessarily leads to “20 people every time 25 had a need for quarters” . . . ? That would be illogical. Your statement is illogical.
“Nothing always works. Thats why you dare to try.” – Well you could say that about our current system too.
I’m saying you can go overboard with the personal sacrifice. (Isn’t that a Goldie Hawn, Kurt Russel movie?)
And no philosophy works if the individual doesn’t make the personal choice to adhere to it. Think of trickle down economics. If the rich hold on to the money, nothing trickles down. So it has to be personal choice.
Nazism and Fascism did not start out with socialistic implications, they were socialists. National Socialism was a German reaction to Bolshevist agitation in Germany after the Russian revolution. Italian Fascism was just straight forward socialism.
I wouldnt give Lenin the benefit of the doubt either. He was perfectly happy with Stalin until he was too old to stop him. They both have a lot of blood on their hands.
Apparently there is something rarer than a liberal in the military — a conservative with a sense of humor! Anyone’s who’s posted knows PK arbitarily assigns those odd colored avatars!
PS Socialist =/= fascist.
When it comes to human behavior, you can only make generalizations. Although you are never guaranteed success working through whatever problem afflicts you, that is what we all do and most of the time it works. It can take years to dig your way out, and yet it is still your responsibility. Even if I or you dont have the resources, it does not in general justify dipping into someone else’s pocket to get them. High taxes take money from other people who know how and where to spend their own money. They may or may not be charitable, and I dont assume they arent. But its their responsiblity to be fair and charitable, its not mine to force them to be. Charity through the government, such as the Great Society programs, is a failure on all accounts. It leads inevitably to moral decay and increases those problems its seeks to solve. Charity funneled throught the government removes the morals of the person being charitable from the equation. They get your money, but they dont have to put up with the morals and work ethic that created your ability to be charitable. When a person chooses to be charitable, he sets an example, not only an example of charity, but an example of the behaviors he expects in others. Anti-social or harmful behaviors should not be rewarded, and individuals typically dont reward them with charity. Government does.
Yes, because we can all see how “charity funneled through the government” has demoralized and degenerated those horrible Scandinavian countries, removing all motivation and work ethic…..I mean, geez, the whole place is in disrepair, and everyone is in MISERY! Gosh, I’ll bet they just want the rest of the world to put a gun to their collective (tee-hee!) heads and pull the trigger! Let’s ask them, shall we, if they want to be the first to be examined by the Death Panels? Damn socialists!
Oh, gosh, here’s Forbes reporting on that very thing, too!
Well, we can certainly see how all that government-forced charity removes the motivation to succeed and excel, can’t we?
“. . . the countries that scored at the top still boast some of the highest gross domestic product per capita in the world. Denmark, which got the highest score, is not only a wealthy country, it’s also highly productive, with a 2009 GDP per capita of $68,000, according to the International Monetary Fund. The United States’ GDP per capita, by contrast, is $47,335. Though the U.S. got an above-average score of 74, it did not break the top 10.
Lazy damn DANES! Jim, I totally see your point, now!
I think you ought to do a little more research on the trouble Denmark is encountering in large part due to its economic system. Try buying a house there, ever heard of the 100 year mortgage?
Really? Well, I did a *little* research, and here’s an article suggesting that the Danish model is a good one to emulate . . . . (link above)
To be honest, I’ll have to do more digging, but here’s a quote:
Now I haven’t done much research into this.
But this would be the system where the monthly installations are so low that the home owner is able to keep up payments even if they lose their job? The system that prevents foreclosures? The system that maintains a steady house price even during a recession?
You can’t compare apples and oranges. It does not cost $50,000 in the US to deliver a full-term baby. Also, the survival rate for premies and babies with birth defects in the US is much much better than anywhere else on Earth. In a lot of countries they don’t even count sick babies or babies less than a month old in their infant mortality stats, and most 1st world countries abort “undesirable” babies before they get a chance to mar their health systems statistics. Sorry if Americans tend to want to give their kids a chance even if it means sacrifices.
That doesn’t mean our system is perfect. It’s not even close. But why don’t they try to fix specific problems instead of redoing the whole thing. Would someone please explain what exactly is wrong with being able to buy insurance from states where it’s cheaper? If the insurance companies (with their 3% profits) are so bad, why not force them to compete for customers. They shouldn’t be exempt from anti-trust laws. It’s expensive, and unconstitutional, for them to be restricted to only one state.
What’s wrong with health savings account for preventative care, so you can work out the price your doctor, and buy additional insurance for more serious health problems? During the campaign, when Obama was still pretending to be a centrist, he said all Americans could use the same health plan Congress uses (which many assumed meant a government option). However, Congress’s health plan is this: health saving accounts, which they pay into, and then they usually purchase either catastrophic coverage or whatever bigger fancier plans they want. From any state. Oh wait! That was the Republican bill that never reached debate on the floor. I’m glad this process is so transparent and bi-partisan, aren’t you?
If we did that, then I would have no problem at all with a much smaller government plan for the (much fewer) people who still could not afford health care.
Bravo! Bravo! *whistles* Bravo! *claps loudly*
Erm, hate to break it to you girl but America is 33rd for infant mortality behind the likes of Sweden, the UK, Canada, Iceland, Denmark and Israel.
A pretty disgusting statistic for the worlds richest and most powerful country aint it?
Take care now.
The survival rate for preemies might be better in the U.S. … let’s say that’s true. You think that numbers of surviving infants are skewed because of certain countries tendencies to abandon sick or undesirable infants, or a difference in the way countries count their infant deaths. OK, how about looking only at Western countries where they don’t have those practices, the wealthier countries with cultures similar to ours …. we still lag behind.
Secondly, it’s great that we have such a good survival rate for preemies; however, we shouldn’t HAVE as many preemies as we do, one of the factors points directly to consistent, equitable prenatal care! We don’t have that, and all those wealthy-as-we, Western-culture (like us) countries DO.
You mean nations that don’t report many of the stats, to make themselves look better? I think it was Froo that posted a link with the stats on that.
Yeah, he probably did spend a lot of money-HIS money.
what a waste of -his- money.
But it was his choice.
And we are allowed to judge him based off of it.
True, but is it a waste if he felt it was the right thing to do? How about people who spend thousands to travel and protest outside the White House during the Bush terms? Was that a waste of money?
Clearly.
well what did the people protesting bush get? called terrorists for not suppoting the preisdent, then clearly not supporting the troops, wave a bunch of signs and then go home?
now im all for everyone’s right to protest, but do you really think its going to do any good?
Some people shouldn’t spout off about “the right thing to do”, while they are whining, “My money! MINE!”
And you have a choice: Your VOTE.
Well guess what, it is MY MONEY! Did you earn it for me? No. It’s mine. So you coming to take MY MONEY to give to someone else is STEALING! So how is that the “right thing to do.” If I opted to give up that money willingly, then it’s ok. Don’t push your liberal morals on me, and call me evil for wanting what I rightfully earned.
So,
All taxes are “stealing”? Really? I still haven’t quite figured out this conservatard argument. It’s only “stealing” when you don’t agree with what the money is used for….gotcha. Whine, whine, bitch moan……I don’t agree with the HUGE portion of the budget used for defense or wars on foreign soil……I STILL don’t call my taxes “stealing”.
You have a choice, you can,
a) Work to change the laws you don’t agree with.
or
b) Move to a different country.
Sooooooo was bush stealing your taxs too? reagan? or was it just obama stealing your taxs?
why no bitter troll it was just obama, these people didnt say crap when bush was in office.
ahhh ok thank you bitter troll
Bitter: I never liked taxes period. Bush actually gave us a Tax Cut. I didn’t like him using tax money for other purposes than defense. Conservatives did not like the last year of Bush’s preseidency, hence the 30% approval rating.
Nobody LIKES taxes. But how is our government going to run without them?
As I’ve said. I know they are a necesary evil. I just don’t want my tax money going to an unconstitutional endeavor.
Pfft. Constitution. People act like it’s perfect or something. But it’s not in the CONSTITUTION!! Then let’s put it in the constitution. We can change that thing, can’t we?
Sure the constitution isn’t perfect, but it’s the law we live by. You can try and change the constitution, it is a living document. But the bottom line is that the majority of America does not want a large government, and I doubt that that Admendment would pass.
Actually if one were to read the constitution you would realize that the government can not create a Universal Health Care. The only things that the Government can tax for is national defense. So when the Government takes my money and gives to a program not directly related to nation defense, then it’s stealing. So really you thinking it’s stealing holds no water, b/c that’s what the constitution allows.
So you have a choice:
a) Work to change the constitution
b) move to a different country.
No, no, it’s stealing because they spend TOO MUCH on defense…..I don’t care for whether the Constitution allows for it or not. The gubmint is taking my money!! At the point of a gun! That’s stealing.
I’ve read the Constitution. Clearly, I interpret it differently than you do. Clearly, also, the last 60 years of judiciary do, too. Laws have been passed in those last 60 years or so that have stood the test.
Oh, but I’m sorry: you’re a better constitutional scholar than ALL of those legislators, lawyers, and judges …… OK.
I guess you have another choice, when you don’t agree with the government, and you believe it’s not following its own constitution: Revolution!
And where abouts in the Constitution does it allow for Universal Health Care?
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happyness..unless you get sick..then DIEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BT, sorry to tell you this, but sooner or later, you’re going to die. With or without healthcare.
bitter troll knows, but bitter troll wants to put it off till the end of bitter troll’s life
Let’s hope there is no bureaucrats deciding when to pull the plug. I don’t care if they can panel a home or not. I actually prefer sheet rock.
plug is silly hooman concept. when troll is sick with no hope if getting better, trolls no keep them alive by fake means, trolls allow death when death should take place and cant be corrected.
PS: How is it evil to want to keep the money I earn? Or let me guess, I was given the money.
Also I never said all taxes were stealing, I love the rhetoric and generalizations you like to throw out to try and waiver your point.
You my friend are a libratard, unlike most liberal goodies on this site.
You said only taxes for defense are okay. So every other program that the government has is wrong then? ALL of them???
Pretty much. Should be left up to a state level.
Don’t need a Department of Education, Federal Communications Commision, most of the DoT, etc…
Except for FBI, CIA, DoD, what else does the constitution allow?
Guess you should have revolted a looooooong time ago.
I never said you SAID all taxes are stealing….did I put that in quotes, assshat?
Don’t call me your friend, or you’re portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite.
My state couldn’t gove