Let’s see if we can put actual, classical liberalism into easy perspective – that is, the one that’s actually rooted in LIBERTY. Take a gander at this video and you’ll get the hint real quick. Link. That’s liberalism, and many, many great statesmen, economists (from Hayek to von Mises to the current Austrians) and scientists embrace it. Deal.

Lots of people earn money without polluting. You should try it some time.

“You can’t just ‘not pollute’ according to the standards that they’re coming up as far as what constitutes pollution.”

I have yet to see any “standards” at this point for CO2 levels. Everything now is still being debated, so we don’t know what the final decision will be. Cap and Trade for the acid rain program has been around for 14 years and has worked well. Our economy didn’t fall apart in 1995, did it?

“Cow farts? Didn’t they try that in the 90’s too? Also, if CO2 is a pollutant, then the simple act of breathing is pollution.”

But I have yet to see anything that “taxes” anyone on breathing. If that happens, I’ll be the first person to protest. Otherwise, this is all a red herring.

“As far as the broken promise of not raising taxes, taxes will go up on energy rates, which will increase your taxes whether you want them to increase or not.”

What taxes? I know of no proposed increase on the *rate* of taxes for any energy source.

“Taxing healthcare falls under an income tax because of the way that it’s caluculated, so there is no semantics there.”

But it isn’t–for now. I’ve never paid income taxes on the value of my health benefits and neither have you–unless you got ripped off. The health insurance taxes are all hypothetical at this point. If it happens, then we’ll see. To me, it doesn’t sound like a good idea, but I’ll reserve my judgment until I see the finished product, so to speak.

“And the only way to pay for the deficit spending (which the Repubs are castigated for all the time) is to raise taxes across the board. It’s going to happen, regardless of what you’re telling yourself.”

Um, no, I don’t see any Republicans being “castigated” for proposing raising “taxes across the board”. I can’t think of a single Republican candidate for any position advocating raising taxes.

Of course raising taxes is pretty much the only way to pay down our debt (or else cut the military by a LOT–probably at least 75%), but there’s no political will to make it happen. It’s up to you and I to make it happen, but we’re too busy arguing semantics on an internet message board.

Here’s the rub, Obama never, ever promised to not EVER raise ANY taxes. You’re totally putting words into his mouth. And I don’t even like Obama so much that I feel the need to defend him all the time. But I’m certain he never said what you’re accusing him of having said. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re simply misinformed.

Obama never promised to never raise taxes on cigarettes that I have heard. And he did talk about raising capital gains during his campaign. But I have yet to see any campaign promise about taxes that Obama has broken (unless the aforementioned health insurance benefits tax happens, which, at this point, is still only a rumor).

“because not only has he already done so, you fully expect him to continue to do so in the future. However, you’re totally fine with that, because for shadowy and ill-defined reasons, it’s “not his fault” and therefore not the kind of lie you’re supposed to get upset about.”

Everything you said there was based on a faulty premise (the he “lied”, which never happened) so let’s move on…

“Furthermore, you can’t be bothered to care about what happens to anyone else unless it happens to you personally first. Is that about right?”

Hmm. Let’s review:

“Dhoti says:
July 3, 2009 at 9:52 am

[...]

And let me guess…you don’t think he’s about to break that promise too and raise your taxes, right?”

You made it about me. I wasn’t even talking about my situation until you brought it up. Note the word, “your”. So I responded directly to your question, and then you got all sanctimonious and smug about it.

How about instead of talking about what either of us said on an internet message board, we could talk about the huge debt this country is currently in, and that it’s likely to lead to a huge devaluation of the dollar unless we do something about it, and that the only two ways to fix the debt is to increase revenue (taxes) or decrease expenses, but many of the expenses go toward social programs that, if eliminated, would hurt the economy even more by leaving a bunch of people high and dry (and not able to pay taxes), and majority of the expenses go toward military spending, which is way out of control, but if any politician cuts that, he/she would be accused of “hating the troops”, so that only leaves increasing taxes, but the Republicans had been accusing Obama of raising taxes all along, especially since the Bush tax cuts (which contributed to the recession/depression we’re in now) were set to expire during the next president’s term, and so he/she would either have to renew the cuts (which certainly wouldn’t help the economy) or do nothing and be accused of “raising taxes”, just as you’re doing right now. So since Obama was already going to be accused of raising taxes, he went ahead and let some tax cuts expire as they had already been scheduled to do and raised a few others that he either had said during his campaign he was going to raise or never said he wasn’t. Meanwhile, you’re crowing about him breaking a promise he never made except in your dreams. Is that about right?

Or we could just get all personal…

“Some piece of work you are…”

It must be nice to be able to read a few comments on an internet message board and then be able to pass judgment on others so easily. But if it helps you feel better about yourself, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

So, let me see if I understand your position — you fully admit that Obama’s campaign promise to not raise taxes was a lie, because not only has he already done so, you fully expect him to continue to do so in the future. However, you’re totally fine with that, because for shadowy and ill-defined reasons, it’s “not his fault” and therefore not the kind of lie you’re supposed to get upset about. Furthermore, you can’t be bothered to care about what happens to anyone else unless it happens to you personally first. Is that about right?

Some piece of work you are…

Is this supposed to be a joke?

Option A: Sign the bill at home.
Option B: Fly out to a hard-hit area of Arizona, bringing 1,000 news crews and spectators with you to stay in their hotels, eat at their food places, and otherwise spend money in their community, in order to sign a bill that’s designed to do something similar to the whole country.

Reality fail

Of course they could’ve.

“And the TARP was an unconditional loan?”

It was when it started out (courtesy of the Bush administration). Then the CEOs who caused this mess used the funds to give themselves bonuses (big shocker, eh?) and the public became outraged. Then Congress added provisions that included limiting executive compensation.

“If you don’t understand that cap and trade is a tax, and a horribly regressive one at that…well, I don’t think I can explain it to you.”

Whether it’s a “tax” or not is a matter of semantics. But the original poster referred to it as “the biggest TAX in history”. That’s absolutely ridiculous. A tax is not optional. This is. If you don’t want your company to buy the credits, don’t pollute. It’s pretty simple, really.

“And I think your information is old — Obama’s $300K promise is already well out of date. (And let me guess…you don’t think he’s about to break that promise too and raise your taxes, right?)”

Let’s see, he’s increased tax on cigarettes. I don’t smoke, so my taxes haven’t gone up. He’s increasing capital gains (still not to the level of income from working, but I digress). No capital gains, here. He’s letting the Bush tax cuts expire on those making over $250,000 (they would’ve expired for everyone if he had done nothing). I don’t make over $250,000. That’s the gist of it. So, no, my taxes aren’t going up.

Of course, if he decides to tax health benefits, then yes my taxes will go up. But it hasn’t happened yet, so we’ll see. And if it does, I think I’ll survive.

On the other hand, raising taxes is the only way Obama will be able to balance the budget since it’s politically impossible (thanks to the Military Industrial Complex and its supporters who are mainly on the right) to cut military spending, which is completely, insanely out of control. Where are the so-called fiscal conservatives on that? Bill Clinton was practically drawn and quartered by the right over essentially not increasing military spending as much as Reagan and Bush I did. You gut the Cold War-era projects and stop our military escapades all over the world, and raising taxes won’t be necessary whatsoever.

If you don’t understand that cap and trade is a tax, and a horribly regressive one at that…well, I don’t think I can explain it to you. And I think your information is old — Obama’s $300K promise is already well out of date. (And let me guess…you don’t think he’s about to break that promise too and raise your taxes, right?)

That’s why nearly every scientist and economist of note has been liberal (and self described themselves that way).

The number one enemy of liberalism is the truth.

More to the point: once it was found that Rather’s documents were illegitimate, the debate became not about what really happened during George Bush’s military stint (remember, Bush allies were extremely critical of Kerry’s military service), but about Dan Rather’s credibility. And that’s as far as it went. So much for a “liberal media.”

The questions about Bush’s military service have never been answered, despite anything Dan Rather has done (or not done).

Just sayin’, if you can get me a clear shot, I’m a pretty quick cannibal.