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Cheezburger Network Blog
FIRST !
So what?
Firewalls block virus-programs accessing the internet, and others trying to access. It does not block virus cloaking into a Trusted program and accessing it that way.
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GOSHDAMN
The saxophone is known as a reed musical instrument that is a staple in jazz bands. Considered to be newer than other musical instruments in terms of its music history, the saxophone was invented by Antoine-Joseph (Adolphe) Sax.
Where is this wall?
I believe this is part of the Israeli security fence/wall, mis-named by some as an “Aparteid Wall”. The wall/fence (only a few miles are like what you see in the picture, the rest is fencing) was built on the Gaza/West Bank/Israel borders by Israel. It has been moved atleast 5 times by order of the Israeli government and courts and can be easily dismantled.
The opening was (most likely) intentionally built to allow limited access through it (by those who might live in the West Bank/Israel but have land in the other). There are also numerous checkpoints along it to allow people to pass through it. The wall has been extemely successful in helping to reduce the number of gunmen attacks and suicide bombings against Israelis. Only one suicide bombing has occured in about a year since the completion of the wall/fence and was due to the terrorists breaking into Egypt and then into Israel. It unfortunately has not helped in reducing the constant rocket and mortar attacks on towns like Sedrot.
It is an apartheid wall. It separates family from family, farmers from their fields, employees from their jobs. It ruins whole blocks of businesses by separating stores and restaurants from their customers.
From Wikipedia: In a 2004 finding, the International Court of Justice declared construction of the wall “contrary to international law.”
10% of the wall so far completed is constructed as pictured above. It is constructed irregardless of what lays within the wall’s path.
The opening was (most likely) intentionally built as such so Israeli Defense Force soldiers have cover while taking strategic positions against rock wielding children.
There are a number of checkpoints along the wall allowing access beyond it after humiliated, dehumanizing, and demoralizing treatment by IDF soldiers.
Though terrorist attacks against Israel have declined, the humanitarian impact of the wall on Palestinians “cannot be overstated” according to a 2005 UN report (via Wikipedia).
On a personal note, I never really knew the meaning of oppressed until I visited the West Bank and saw that wall. I urge all who read this to go see for themselves and form an opinion. When you see the beauty of a verdant valley with fields of cucumbers and squash marred by this 20 ft high monument to injustice it will make you despair.
If we were getting suicide bombers from Mexico, we’d do the same damn thing…
I have to say, the Arab-Israeli conflict is one in which there is plenty of blame to go around. Other than the defenseless poor, on both sides, I don’t really feel like there are any innocent parties.
I keep trying to type words that express who I think is more to blame, but my feelings are truly conflicted. Culturally, I have more in common with the Israelis. I admire their ability to create a working secular society while maintaining a connection to a faith that’s endured every privation that could be thrown at them for thousands of years. Their faith is not only the oldest extant religion, it is also the basis for the three major faiths that dominate our planet.
On a less serious note, an inordinately large number of my favorite authors, actors, scientists, and comedians are Jewish. Plus, Israeli women are hawt hawt hawt!
I don’t know much about Palestinian culture. I don’t have any affinity for Islam. I don’t know any artists or scientists of Palestinian (hell, even of Arab or Persian for that matter) descent. In short, I don’t have any reason to care about their situation on a personal level.
Nevertheless, I can’t help but think they were minding their own business 130 years ago when Jews started moving in. Jews weren’t particularly persecuted in the region at the time; no one had any way of knowing that 65 years later external powers would mandate Jewish control of Israel. I think they must feel a lot like the surviving American Indians do when they think of the lands of their fathers being taken by a more powerful culture.
I dunno, man.
All I know is the current situation, with two powers killing innocent women and children on both sides and claiming moral superiority, is untenable.
Niels Bohr once said: “The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.”
Probably more useful for this discussion would be this excerpt from an interview with Malaclypse the Younger:
GP: Is Eris true?
M2: Everything is true.
GP: Even false things?
M2: Even false things are true.
GP: How can that be?
M2: I don’t know man, I didn’t do it.
That’s pretty much fair; I’d suggest that, apart from residents of the Middle East, blame might be apportioned to more or less every “developed nation”, including our own.
I do apprecite your view point, and honestly it is prossibly one of the best. But I do have to ask, why do you view the Palestinians (Arabs) as the natives and not the Israelis (Jews? and Druze?). Are you aware that Jews lived on the lands of Israel and Palestine for more than 2000 years? That the earliest the Arabs had arrived was about 1400 years ago? That the Jews were once called Palestinians and not Arabs (early 1900s)? I hope not to be offensive but I find it odd that the Israelis are viewed as “invaders” and not the Palestinians/Arabs…
For someone who disagrees with me, you argue very nicely, thank you. I hope I can return the respect you have shown me in my response.
Historical argument doesn’t hold much weight with me. AT THE TIME that Jews started fleeing pogroms in Europe and Russia, the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim people were living there. They had been there for a very long time, and hadn’t had anything to do with kicking out the Jews. I think the argument that one’s ancestors some 2000 years previous had once lived there is a rather thin reason to evict people from their homes. One might as well argue that anyone of Asian or European descent should leave the Americas and allow the Native Americans to own the continent, especially since their claim is much more recent.
That said, I don’t see any benefit to kicking the Jews out of the region at this point either. I just think something has to be done to allow these people to live together without violence. Let that happen and in a hundred years you’ll have the most beautiful and culturally vibrant areas in the world, imo.
Well I have to give you most of the credit, you placed you opinion in a friendly manner.
It looks like you and I see the situation from opposite sides. I view the Jews as the “Natives” as their ancestors had come to, and resided in the area longer and continuously (though many times in very few numbers). True, many who began to emmigrate back (some fleeing persecution, others to return to their home) to the area prior to the conflict came from European countries, but some also came from other Arab countries. I will state I find it odd how the Arabs can get incensed by Israel which occupies so little land, when they have so much more. It was only after the 1970s that the Palestinians were viewed by Arabs as an independant “ethnic group”. Till then the Palestinians were Arabs (in the early 1900s the Jews were typically called Palestinians or Palestinian Jews).
I agree with you that if the Palestinians and Israelis (and heck everyone) could learn to live in peace, then the area could be very beautiful and vibrant (or maybe more beautiful and vibrant). Hopefully the people, and their leaders, will realise that and choose peace.
Good enough. Thanks for remaining civil in a very touchy discussion.
hi buddy, you’re saying that the jewish religion somehow has a claim on that land. that is total bullsh*t. just because it says that in your bible, does’nt mean everyone else should accept it.
Irregardless is not a word.
Regardless is already “without regard”.
Adding the “ir” prefix makes it a double negative.
This message sponsored by the Neo-Grammatical-Nazi party.
Yea I realized that post post. I don’t think you should use Nazi in any form in this thread.
Post post, I realize that that may not seem seemly. Or funny.
Does it seem that Irked is coming apart at the seams? Seemingly?
Perhaps. My seams are frayed at this late hour.
It seperates Israelis from Palestinians (which is good). The few farmers who were once seperated have had the wall moved or personal entrances added so they would not be seperated (if not they were reimbursed for loss of crop). Those who were employed in Israel can still get to their jobs, though it will take longer and they have to go through a security check (maybe to stop gunmen and suicide bombers?). And the businesses most affected by it are Israeli businesses (loss of workers and customers) which is a sacrafice for security. You seem to be unaware of the numerous times the wall has been repathed to prevent hardship and when it could not be those who suffered hardship were reimbursed.
You can take a few minutes to read the declaration to find serious legal oversights and use of assumptions and not facts. It declares the wall a “act of violence against civilians”, since when has a wall killed someone? And that Israel will (not possibly, but WILL) annex the territory to the west of it (which cannot be proven but they use the assumption for their justification, the wall/fence was specifically designed to be moved or removed).
Humanitarian aid still flows into Palestine thanks to Israel, one of the largest givers of aid to the Palestinians along with the US (1/5th the funds to UNRWA) compared to the neighboring Arab countries, most of which provide no aid at all.
I would advise most people to be very wary about what the UN does, it is no longer the big moral authority it should be. While over 300,000 have died and 2.7 million have been displaced in Darfur over a short time, very little has been done by the UN (they finally have indicted the President of Sudan, but cannot extradite him), in the same time over 20 resolutions have been passed against Israel.
More money is spent on each Palestinian then any other refugee, there are more refugee workers per person (1 per 100 compared to 1 per 2000), and Palestinians and all of their decendants retain the status of refugee till death, unlike anywhere else (who can quickly lose their status and their children are not considered refugees).
The opening was to allow certain Palestinians to move through (unless it is a painting). Your information seems extremely outdated, the days of children hurling rocks has passed. Hamas prefers to strap explosive vests to them (or women, or mentally retarded, or dress up as women, ect). The Jordanian checkpoints are FAR more humiliating then the Israeli checkpoints, but no one seems to complain (it is a rare occurance that Palestinians are unduly harrassed by Israelis, and most times the soldiers are reprimanded).
If you want to see opression go to Darfur where children are starving in the fields, women are gang raped, men butchered and crucified (none of that is done by Israel). Or see what Hamas does to its own people (mass murder, gun battles in the streets, beatings during weddings, defenestration, shooting in knees, use of human shields, ect). Or go look at the schools in Sderot which have been turned into bunkers and have security fences around them or playgrounds that have at least one piece of equipment that was designed for use as a bunker. Stay there till you hear “Tzeva Adom” and see if you can make it to a school in 15 seconds before the rocket strikes.
“It [seperates] Israelis from Palestinians (which is good).” In the long run no, it’s not. We need to learn to co-exist for any real hope of a future for both our people. It may seem like a good temporary solution, but all it breeds is even more resentment and hate. I don’t know what the relationship is like between arab-israelis and jewish-israelis in other places, but it has to be better than the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis in the west bank.
“Your information seems extremely outdated, the days of children hurling rocks has passed.” My first visit to Israel and Palestine, 2 years ago, I was waiting in line in my car at the checkpoint at the refugee camp on the way to Ramallah. Some boys, between 6-14 years old started hurling rocks at the soldiers. The soldiers were wearing helmets with visors protecting their faces. They wore full body armor and carried automatic weapons. One soldier shot at the boys. If this somehow happened in the US, where I live, I know the bullets would have been rubber. This being in Israel, I’m more inclined to believe they were live rounds. Thankfully the soldier missed, and instead shot out the windshield of the car in front of me. The driver of that vehicle was alone, and no one was hurt, thank God. If that bullet hit our car, which was full, I don’t know what would have happened.
I am unaware of the details pertaining to the wall and who is “more” affected. I am only aware of what I experienced personally and what my family has experienced.
I’m curious as to what you think happened in Gaza, not what has happened in Darfur, since Israel and Palestine are the subject here.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org
In the long run, yes it is good. It reduces the number of Israelis wounded and killed by gunmen and suicide bombers. The current IDF young soldiers all grew up through the years of Palestinian terrorism, almost all of them have had a family member killed or wounded by a Palestinian gunman or suicide bomber. As long as Israelis are treatened then they will be unwilling to make the sacrifice of security and land needed for peace (if the Palestinians actually stay to any treaty). The relationship of the Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank is one of the worst. The Palestinians feel that the Israelis are invaders, though most had lived there before 1948, and most of the Israelis have had a family member wounded or killed by a terrorist attack.
The use of ad-hominem attack (ie “If this somehow happened in the US, where I live, I know the bullets would have been rubber. This being in Israel, I’m more inclined to believe they were live rounds.”) and some of the lack of specific information (date, place, ect) makes me hesitant to believe it is 100% factual. Sorry but I have argued with FAR too many who have used vague, and apparently false accusations. But, if true, somethings are left out. You have no way to tell if they used rubber or normal bullets, your assumption is biased. Rubber bullets can smash a window and can kill people (though less likely). Although armored a stone, large enough and thrown well enough, can cause lasting injury. They could also throw a molotov cocktail or hand grenade in the mix (which has happened). What gives the children the “right” to assault a law enforcement officer (which the soldiers were acting as such at the time)? Does it allow Israeli children to do the same to Palestinian officers (or Palistinians)?
I use Darfur, and all other refugees, to show the hyporcisy of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. More money has been given to the Palestinians than ANY other group that has been given refugee status. The Palestinians have held onto the refugee status long than ANY other refugee people (though some have NEVER been able to return to the place of origin). The Palestinians have squandered Billions of dollars that could have built a vibrant, thriving, independant economy. Instead they are reliant on ISRAEL for the vast majority of their aid, aid flow (almost none goes through Egypt or Jordan), and medical care.
I took a quick, and now a longer look, through the website and find several errors in just a few minutes. They state there are 223 Israeli settlements in Palestine and no Palestinian settlements in Israel. They dont state that the settlements are such because Palestine will not allow them to be citizens (though most dont want to be), and that most existed before 1948, while Israel has 1.4 million Arabs (most who identify themselves as Palestinians) as citizens (12 of which are in the Knesset, one on the supreme court, and various other offices). The site states that the area was “living in peace” in the 19th century though there were numerous, and increasing, riots by Arabs against Jews (and other Arabs). It also shows an extremely one sided view of everything, like Deir Yassin which was the result of the killing of hundreds (mostly unarmed) Jews trying to bring food to Jerusalem which was being blockaded and starved. It states that the Jewish armed forces were “larger” than the Arab army. Though marginally larger, it consisted of lightly trained soldiers with mostly small arms. The Arab forces consisted of several professional armies and included tanks (which were defeated by 2 Israeli artillery guns). I pesonally advise independant research with triple checking of information and trying to use original sources (for too many sites and people, on both sides, slant the information too much).
There is also a huge problem with too many news sources, and websites, that take information given to them by Palestinian sources and present them as absolute facts which have turned out to be fabrications or missing major facts. Jenin, the Al-Fakhura UN School, and “the Martyr’s Crossing”.
“In the long run, yes it is good. It reduces the number of Israelis wounded and killed by gunmen and suicide bombers. ” That does not take into account the humanitarian issues in Palestine. Israelis don’t get hurt and wounded, so let Palestine suffer?
“almost all of them have had a family member killed or wounded by a Palestinian gunman or suicide bomber” I seriously doubt that since service in the IDF is mandatory for non-Arab Israelis. It could be that that particular soldier had an itchy finger, and this was an isolated incident. However, these are supposed to be professional soldiers, not people with a personal vendetta to repay.
“The Palestinians feel that the Israelis are invaders, though most had lived there before 1948, ” The settlements are illegal on land forcibly confiscated or bought from Palestinians through intimidation. My family owns land on which a military outpost now sits. No “compensation” was given. We are in the process of suing for our land back. Though, realistically, nothing will come of it. We own another tract of land that we are not allowed to build on due to Israel “defining” the borders of towns. As with the wall, this is another way in which it is ghettoizing parts of Palestine in an effort to gain more territory for Israel to expand it’s borders. After all, God demands it of them, does he not?
“and some of the lack of specific information (date, place, ect) makes me hesitant to believe it is 100% factual.” My recollection of the event is crystal clear in my mind. However, I have forgotten the name of the checkpoint, but it is the main entrance to Ramallah. It occurred the summer my brother in law was married, 4 years ago, not 2. I’m sorry for that mistake.
I’d like to add that before I visited Israel and Palestine, I thought Israel had every right to do whatever it wanted within it’s own borders and Palestine. In my mind, it was only defending itself from “crazy arabs”. I grew up arguing with my parents about it saying, “What do you want them to do? Just let terrorists attack them freely?” The moment where understanding of my family’s viewpoint came in the airport in Tel Aviv. Arabs were segregated from Jews, no matter where they were from. No questions were answered in the eight hours I was made to wait. Questions like, “Are the computers down? Is that whats taking so long?” or “How much longer do you think this will be?” or “Is there any more information that you need from me to make this go quicker?” No answers. Nothing. Not even, “I’m sorry about this, really, but there is nothing we can do.” Blank stares, complete rudeness, and a sense that I was worth less to them then the dirt under their feet. The one saving grace of that whole experience was one girl that let me come outside with her to smoke a cigarette, clearly a security violation. Thank god for her, or else I would have broken down in tears after the 4th hour of sitting on the floor with no idea what I’m waiting for. After that experience, my eyes opened to all the other little atrocities that were happening around me. I don’t hate Israel. I really don’t. I hate it’s policies, and I hate that what drives it is religion.
Jews are not the “owners” of that land, as decreed by God. If native South Americans, for example, decided that the United States belonged to them, as decreed by the Gods they worship, would we not look at them like.. WTF? If they gathered together, planned and implemented the creation of a “holy country” on another nation’s land, would we permit it? If it then based immigration into that country on religion, wouldn’t that be slightly bananas? Yes. Yes it would be. Just like waging a “holy war” on the west by Islamic militants is bananas. Israel just had the power, money, and sympathy or hatred of Europe to let it happen. Palestinians were deemed unimportant and swept aside, and we are still suffering for our own ignorance and poverty. We were farmers. We are still farmers. We just want to grow grapes and olives. We were uneducated, which added to the ease in which we were dismissed. Now, everyone is educated, but no one has a job. We sit around drinking tea and smoking an argilla talking endlessly about politics and corruption within the Palestinian Authority. We shrug our shoulders and say, “So what. Let them get what they can get, tomorrow Israel will take more land, build more of the wall, or build another settlement.” We are slowly dying. This is what breeds suicide bombers, my friend, hopelessness.
How does Palestine suffer? Because they have been forced to rely only on Israel for humanitarian aid and work? Why is there no complaints against Jordan and Egypt who could employ many and allow them to ship products through their countries? But it is only Israel, oh so hated Israel, that seems to be the only place Palestinians can find work, can travel to, and can find hope to improve their lives (and where gay Palestinians flee to when found out)…
Unfortunatly I cannot find the website but there was a statistic that said 1 in 900 Israelis had been killed, wounded, or at the scene of a terror attack. “Service in the IDF is mandatory” and “professional soldiers” cannot go together. Some in the IDF do not want to be there and some do not belong there (emotional, personal problems). But Israel has mandatory service, much like the US did in Vietman, and if you know anything about US morale in Vietnam you will know that the soldiers who didnt want to be there served poorly. The IDF faces that each day and tries it best in the face of an extremely difficult task and constant condemnation.
There have been many who have been detained at the Israeli airports for various reasons. Your name or someone with you could be the same as a terror suspects alias, your information could have been unverifiable, or they could have felt you were suspicious. If you have a problem with it bring your complaint to the authorities.
How are the Arabs the owners of the land? Because they had conquered it? Was it not under the control of England right before Israel declared its independance according to UN Resolution 181? Why is it the Israelis who are the “invaders”? It was the home of their ancestors who were forcibly removed. Did not their ancestors wish to return? Jerusalem was the capital of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, the place of the Temple Mount and the Kotel (Wailing Wall). Why should they be denied their Holiest sites? Should Muslims be denied Mecca or Catholics denied Rome? The US is, and has never been, anything to the South American Natives, but Jerusalem and Israel has always been the ancient home of the Jews.
We have permitted the taking of other lands by some who did so on “religious reasons”. Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Sudan, and Morroco were ALL conquered by Muslim Arabs centuries ago. By your standard should they all not have to leave?
You state that you sit around “talking endlessly about politics and corruption within the Palestinian Authority” but little is done but attacking and killing of Israelis. You overlook that your problem is YOUR OWN LEADERS! If your leaders are not serving your needs, then GET RID OF THEM. Dont listen to them, strap a bomb to yourself, and go kill Israeli women and children for their benefit. Get rid of your leaders who have done nothing for you. Preferably through peaceful means (you have elections now, find a leader who will put the benefit of the people first). Have you not noticed that Israel had never started any of the major wars they fought in? Have you not noticed that your leaders show non-stop anti-Israeli and anti-semetic propaganda (Al-Aqsa TV) to divert peoples anger from those that should be taking care of their needs, their leaders, to others (like Israel and the US)?
Our democratically elected leaders are not to your liking, so they are made ineffectual by withholding funds, and another government, not elected by the people is put in it’s place. Hamas is not the type of government Palestine needs, but how can you say you are a Democracy and then cripple another democratically elected government?
You say we depend solely on Israel for humanitarian aid and work. You depend on the U.S. government for 5 billion dollars of your budget, and American Jews for another boost. You force us to depend on you for the very water that comes into the west bank. We have no air or sea ports, we have no control over the border, and we have no other choice. You speak as though we have the world at our feet in Palestine, and we choose not to reach for it. We aren’t allowed to grant Palestinian citizenship to those who wish it. We aren’t allowed to pave roads without Israeli approval. We aren’t allowed to expand towns. We aren’t allowed to improve infrastructure without Israeli approval. You mentioned how little land Israel has compared to Palestine/West Bank. It’s is Palestine only in name when you only grant control of 33% of it to the Palestinian Authority, with the remaining majority still under Israeli control.
Don’t talk to me about dead Israeli women and children after what happened in Gaza. That was a true shame on Israel.
Don’t swallow whole the “truths” your government feeds you, my friend. Israel’s public/media relations ministry is notorious for spin.
I am sorry for harping on religion, but I can’t help to feel that if all of Israel were secular, the conflict would have been over by now.
(To be clear, when I use “you” I mean Israel. I certainly don’t blame you for the conflict, it’s just a writing style.)
Well I guess there is a misunderstanding in my support for Israel. I am not an Israeli citizen, nor Jewish. No one in my family is from or is living in Israel, nor are my ancestors from Israel or do I have any significant Jewish ancestry. I am an American, Christian, and of mostly English ancestry. I have no stake in Israel’s existence. I support Israel because all should support Democracy over Tyranny, equality over prejudice, innovation over regression.
Hamas was not given the authority to attempt to oust the Palestinian President Abbas, nor attack and kill members of other political factions or Palestinian citizens they accuse of “aiding Israel”. Hamas was, and still is, an organization that uses terrorism, violates human rights, and promotes genocide. Other “democratically elected” governments have been outed before. Especially when they have attacked, killed, and threatened others.
A country needs good governance, peaceful relations with other countries, and to not promote genocidal propaganda. All things Palestinians have lacked. If a people cannot find it in themselves to be able to respect their neighbors, keep peace in their territory, stop violence against their neighbors by their own people, and not commit human rights violations on their own people how can anyone be expected to believe they will create a lawful nation?
It is shameful what happened in Gaza. But Hamas is as much, if not much more responsibility, for the deaths then Israel. Israel choses only military targets or people believed to be a threat (even if sometimes they were wrong). Israel attempted to warn Palestinians about possible danger of military strikes in their neighborhood. Hamas used homes, schools, and mosques to store weapons and munitions, base attacks from, set up booby traps, pass themselves off as civilians, and use women and children as soldiers/weapons. Hamas could use the approximate 25% of Gaza that is not developed to base their attacks, abandoned buildings, or clear civilians from their bases of operation. Instead they encourage civilian casualties by operating in their midst, disguising themselves as civilians, and conscripting children and women. Hamas constantly attempts to kill Israelis, while Israel tries to refrain from retaliating.
If you think Israel “spins” information then you have no clue about Palestinian “reporting”, creation of “scenes”, and falsifying of information that has been called Pallywood. You can research such great instances as “The Green Helmet Guy”, Al-Fakhura UN School, the Ghalya family deaths, the Jenin “massacre”, the “Martyr’s Crossing”, digital enhancement of photos, placement of items (dolls, manequins), ect. Israel researches their information and tries to make the most credible accounts they can.
Israel is largely secular and follows civil laws. The Jewish religious people are not a majority, yet there is still conflict. Maybe it is because Hamas uses the Khaybar verse of the Koran in their charter (it calls for the death of all Jews). Israel has offered and stood by numerous peace proposals while Palestinian leaders have taken every oportunity to break them or demand to change them. Israel forcefully removed every settler from Gaza. The Palestinians entered the settlements, destroyed the synagogues, greenhouses, and most of the infrastructure and continued their attacks on the Israelis. “Palestinians never miss an oporatunity to miss an oportunity”.
Out of curiosity, have you ever been to Israel? If not, go see for yourself what you are supporting. Go into the West Bank and just witness what’s going on. It is safe for Americans, no matter what you read. Go eat ice cream at Rukabs, and chat with the locals. LOOK at the wall. LOOK at the checkpoints. Then tell me it isn’t oppression. Palestine might not be as familiar to you as Tel Aviv is, but it has a vibrancy of it’s own. Islam has been hijacked by people like Hamas, and Arabs have a crappy reputation because of some nut-jobs. Arabs in general are hospitable, passionate, and genuine people. We LOVE to argue (as you may have noticed) and we sometimes get loud for no apparent reason. We could be telling a joke and it sounds like we are enraged. It’s just the way we are. Go visit the West Bank, I promise you that your eyes will be opened.
During the whole Gaza fiasco, the spokesman for Israel that was assigned to the US news agencies was INSANELY on message, “Hamas is… We are defending… thousands of rockets…” over and over again. No questions answered, clarified or expanded upon. They wouldn’t allow any foreign press into Gaza. It was crazy. I think there was even a statement that was leaked that went something like, “We can have a successful mission, but we will look terrible in the pictures.” The fact that they knew they would be killing hundreds and hundreds of civilians, and they were worried about how it looked is absolutely chilling. What you wrote above is exactly what they wanted you to know, and nothing more.
By the way, “The Palestinians entered the settlements, destroyed the synagogues, greenhouses, and most of the infrastructure and continued their attacks on the Israelis. “Palestinians never miss an [oporatunity] to miss an [oportunity]” is completely wrong to my knowledge. I was under the impression that they bulldozed everything to the ground as they were leaving.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/215200/israel_set_to_remove_final_settlement_in_gaza/index.html
there is no opening there. it’s a trompe d’oeil by Banksy. have you been to sderot? since the wall is in the west bank, it wouldn’t help sderot, since that’s by gaza. sderot has been quiet since december, the wall is a symbol of human rights violations, that’s inarguable.
Too good for a trompe d’oeil… Plus, it’s at an angle and a trompe d’oeil wouldn’t look right if seen like that. (Unless it was one of those pieces of stretched-out pavement art.)
((I guess my first reply got eaten due to links.))
I would suggest you check some recent news reports about Sderot (takes about 3 seconds of typing in Sderot rocket attacks). I found a report about continued rocket attacks in January and another in May (which was talked about due to Israel retaliating).
Wow, that was… How should I put it? … Fair and balanced
looks more like the us mexico border…
Oh look – a security hole in the apartheid firewall!
This “firewall” seems to be missing a significant amount of fire…
And it is not in Africa too…
Why does the Israeli accent sound like the South African accent
I have the most inkling feeling that it was designed to have a door.
Why did this need to be in motivational format? Or so wordy? Meh.
This is a Banksy painting… It’s in Israel…
Naw, this is the Banksy painting. [LINK]
Banksy’s good but he’s not that good, lol…
Here’s another West Bank painting. [LINK]
Banksy did more than a dozen paintings along the wall, so it could well be his.
No, because for it to be in the right proportions (as seen here) you’d have to be looking straight at a Banksy painting. This is from an angle. Looks like a photograph to me…
this doesn’t even look like a painting, more like real people… why didn’t I think of that in the first place *facepalm*
It’s a Baz Ratner photo.
Scroll to the bottom of the link.
You know, it would really suck if you made a concerted effort to get over/through the wall because you thought that’s what was on the other side. That would be very disappointing.
I think you’ll find it’s in Palestine, not Israel
I’m sorry, can you show me where is this “Palestine” you speak of? I’m not sure I know its exact location.
Yeah, it’s in this picture. Can you see it?
Historical Palestine is an area, not a nation. It includes the nation of Israel, and parts of Jordan, the Lebanon and Syria.
Failwall? Wallfail?
Its a banksey
Fact Fail – It’s Baz Ratner, Israeli news photographer. Google it, he has some very striking images.
I’m surprised no one has realized that this firewall should be iMpenetrable and not iNpenetrable.
How about “third party?”
Who’s the second party to building the wall? I’m wrong, because it’s a software expression apparently, but I most will wonder if they think about it who are the 2 parties to begin with? The government and the people, with the sub-contractor as the third?
Yes, it’s Sunday I should be cleaning…
obviously someone did, unless you’re no one.
Oh ha-ha, very funny. That was clever.
Wait, why is this funny?
Why is Homestar Runner funny?
because he’s a moron
He’s not, Strong Bad is. And Trogdor, of course.
Another victim of blind hate:
WICHITA, Kansas – Media reports say that abortion provider Dr. George Tiller has been shot and killed at his Wichita church. Tiller has been among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortion. His clinic has repeatedly been the site of protests for about two decades. He was acquitted in March of misdemeanor charges stemming from procedures he performed, but moments after the verdict the state’s medical board announced it was investigating allegations against him that are nearly identical to those the jury had rejected.
—
Tiller has been a favored target of anti-abortion protesters, and he testified that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats. His clinic was the site of the 1991 “Summer of Mercy” protests marked by mass demonstrations and arrests. His clinic was bombed in 1985, and an abortion opponent shot him in both arms in 1993.
You know, when I heard about this, the first thing I thought about was that discussion we were all having the other day about that. Well, there you go. A murdered abortion doctor. Hypocrisy at its nastiest.
I just caught wind of the story today. Damn shame. I liked his reasoning. The woman is the patient until the fetus has natural survival ability. And every late term abortion had to be justified so he couldn’t just do them casually either. He did his job, even under the threat of death. He will be remembered for his service.
“every late term abortion had to be justified so he couldn’t just do them casually either. ”
That was something I didn’t know, thanks. Late term abortion makes me twitchy; I certainly don’t think it’s right to just wait until late term to decide you aren’t ready to be a mother!
I was reading the articles about him this morning so I am fresh with the info.
Mind throwing me a link to the best summary?
I haven’t studied applied ethics in ages, my legal knowledge in the area is rusty at best. And US law is mostly a blank to me.
Well this is about the murder in general
{http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/kansas.doctor.killed.charges/index.html}
Now lemme dig up what I read this morning.
{http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/tiller.profile/index.html}
There ya go. It does state that heads of Anti-abortion groups are condemning the murder but aren’t going into detail and naming organizations that are condemning it. I wasn’t happy with the lack of detail in that matter.
Damn wordwrapping didn’t work on the first one. However, what you asked for is the second addy, so you’re still answered.
Thanks
Here’s the quotes from Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue:
Terry: The point that must be emphasized over, and over, and over again: pro-life leaders and the pro-life movement are not responsible for George Tiller’s death. George Tiller was a mass-murder and, horrifically, he reaped what he sowed.
Q: So who is responsible …
Terry: The man who shot him is responsible …
Q: “… because that makes it sound like you were saying that he [Tiller] is responsible.
Terry: The man who shot him is responsible.
Q: What did you mean by “he reaped what he sowed”?
Terry: He was a mass-murder. He sowed death. And then he reaped death in a horrifying way.
Then, as the press conference was ending:
“Thank you for coming, unless there’s any other questions. [Off-Camera] And I truly am sorry that we had to meet under these circumstances. I like Guinness for those of you who want to have a beer somewhere. I prefer my chicken wings really hot and a little crispy. ”
For those who want to know more about this real piece of work: {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Terry}
Awww, damn. Now I want chicken wings. Thanks Mark.
So, in short, Randall Terry is saying, no his organization didn’t commit the crime, but he seems to be satisfied that somebody did. That’s real nice, f-ing hypocrite.
More and more I am convinced that human conflicts over religion, sex, power, money have their ultimate source in our primate instincts. There are uncomfortable likenesses between our social structures and those of chimpanzees, our closest genetic relatives.
Broadly speaking, the alpha male rules with violence and intimidation supported by a range of lieutenants, who are angling for their chance at being alpha male. These may go on hunting expeditions against monkeys or even other chimps. Prey are killed, torn apart and eaten. Most sex is obtained by the alpha male or his lieutenants who have to sneak around to get it. Other males are punished if caught.
The females are ruled by the alpha female who is supported by a range of secondary females. She decides who eats and gets groomed.
Young males and excluded females are picked on by everyone. Young males are angling to get into the power hierarchy to get sex and more food. They hang out in groups, sometimes hunting but also will rape any female they can corner.
Excluded females have short lives. They are the object lesson which help the alpha female stay in power. They are often raped or even killed and eaten by young males.
Religious strictures and social customs are mainly hierarchical. They are about control or power: who has it and who is excluded from it. Who can have sex and how, and who cannot.
Think about this, and ask yourselves – how do we best show we are free willed humans? (ie not instinct driven primates) This is a question our species should consider in this new millenium.
I had trouble with the transition in the next to last paragraph, and was thinking, “Is this person honestly saying that chimpanzees have religious strictures? What?!”
Very thought provoking post, once I got my brain fully engaged. Thanks.
Yeah, exactly. My god is better than yours. You deserve to die because of it.
This makes me think too much.
*starts throwing poo*
Very thoughtful. Thank you.
I am depressed by how much of this I already knew and puzzled out over my years of life. Nevertheless, I applaud your eloquence and statement as it has a painful truth to it…
Well put, thanks.
What I find uniquely fascinating about humans is the lengths they will go to to hide their barbarism. From religous crusades to nationalism to modern ‘clashes of cultures’, there’s a deep-seated fear of those who are different.
We dress it up and give it pretty names to make it seem acceptable. But when you cut back to the bone, tribalism is at the root of most human suffering. In the examples you give, we see our own flaws without the window-dressing, which is what makes them so moving and distressing.
So, attacks on abortion doctors or nearby tribes or groups – their source is in primate rage. These are “hunting expeditions” against targets that some religious or other rationale has legitimised. Thus mobs form and act out cathartic rage, once again underscoring how little our species has progressed from our ape ancestry.
^.^ i do love to see people thinking about human beings as primates, particularly intelligent ones yes, but still. it’s always been intriguing to me to look at human history, and violence and watch ideals change as people began accepting different people into what they consider their own social group, as well as how morality changes depending on what’s the most useful. Cannibalism used to be fine until we started to farm and ranch, then it was more useful to keep prisoners alive to work.
ah humans, such a curious creature.
Part of our inherent problem is our arrogance in assuming we are above animals. Unfortunately by pretending we are more, we fall victim to the same animal instincts and without preparation, we act on them to unfortunate ends.
If we accepted that we are still animals, primates to be exact, then we could work on better understanding our natures and overcoming the more dangerous of our emotions by channeling that energy into more productive, positive, or at least less damaging avenues.
Holding onto illusions in spite of the facts seems to be a common problem. If we’re going to claim that we’re more than just primates, we need to act like it, yet many people think that the claim is enough. Much like claiming that the USA is the greatest country in the world, or that members of a religion actually follow their stated values.
I’m not sure that we need to “accept” that we’re animals. Either we work in that context and strive to be good animals, or we need to stop acting like animals. I suppose it ends up much the same either way, as long as we’re aware that the problem is we’re not acting how we say we act, not believing what we say we believe.
To correct a problem, you must first acknowledge and accept that there is a problem. It is why I stated that we needed to accept that fact and then proceed from there.
I’m interested, because I agree with a lot of what you say here. Would you say that, on a long enough timeline, we could move beyond understanding our nature, and change it? Could this be a desirable and good thing?
You might have guessed, I have opinions.
I believe that accepting and embracing the animals, we can understand the animal. By understanding the animal, we have the only chance of overcoming that which would keep us barbaric.
However, I don’t believe we will ever go beyond understanding our natures, for even if we change our natures, we would still need to understand it lest we fall back into the utter sway of instinct over reason.
Sadly, this makes the animal look bad when the animal is perhaps the purest part of what we are. It is our reptilian brain with simple wants and needs. if we fail to address those needs and wants constructively, then the animal will rebel and seek its own fulfillment.
We don’t get to cheat our natures. We either understand them or fool ourselves into believing we aren’t swayed when we are nothing but thralls.
Nicely put. Don’t forget that many ‘good’ behaviors come from the animal parts of our brains, too. Other animals had society, social interactions, and cooperation long before we evolved.
Very true, a lot of our more noble characteristics come from the animal within. Protecting our young, our mate, our family, helping others, all come from that lovable furball that hides in the back of our brain.
Well put. I think you’re right on the money when you talk about always having to understand in order to control the parts that need it, and accept the parts that don’t. We have to learn to work with them, even when they’re misguided, because they swing the bigger club.
When you say “we don’t get to cheat our natures”, do you mean you think we’ll be tied to what we are now forever? Do you think there’s a possible future where, say, violence is no longer a natural human instinct?
I am saying that nothing is earned without understanding and self discovery. Ergo, we cannot expect to become above violence, at least within our global community, by simply whitewashing our problems and saying we are above it when we haven’t proven or done anything to back that statement up.
Basically, I am saying that I can’t change my proverbial spots just because I say so. I have to actually work at it. Cheating implies we get to just get around doing the emotional work.
I agree with you entirely, which kind of suprises me. I go down the road that, with enough hard work over enough time, we can make changes that seemed impossible to start with.
Possibly my favourite topic there is, but I gots to sleep. Catch you another time.
Impossibility merely states what we don’t comprehend yet and what will be possible tomorrow.
Rest well.
Please do not fall into the error of thinking (so prevalent in the New Age), that animals are somehow purer. It simply transfers the 18 th C notion of the Noble Savage onto animals. Animals are what they are – neither noble or ignoble. It is humans who make moral judgements like that. So when I look at chimps, I see a species that does what it does because of what it is, neither good nor evil. However it seems to me that humans like to believe they can be different than their natures, so if we do aspire to nobility then as per many comments above, it is time we started taking responsibility for what we are, what we do as a species.
For instance, how might we organise our society to avoid giving excessive power to alphas or other sources of abuse? How can we share power in a realistic fashion so that government is possible?
Pure… As in they don’t lie to themselves and say they are better. They are what they are… At no time did I say noble. I said pure and I meant it. Your reasoning only reinforcing my thinking.
If our republic fails, as the Roman one did, it will be because of our baser nature. A republic is only as good as the people running it. As long as the Constitution commands respect among our elected rulers, the republic is governs will endure.
This is why certain people got all upset over (thankfully former) President Bush’s remark about the Constitution being “just a goddamned piece of paper.”
Please to excuse- I am here for the Funny. Am not yet finding it.
Any hopeful directions make impossibly happy.
(reads from DWN phrasebook)
Where are the Nazi’s please to ask?
Good morning for you!
A private secure port, installed by security experts, for code maintenance and traffic monitoring, was easily exploited by coder kiddies.
The LuffWange has bombed the funny into wang shaped, bite sized gerbil food. With penetrating force and violent impaling, the funny was left ragged and spent.
In other Vague news, things with stuff do something.
Aren’t our closest relatives actually bonobo chimpanzees?
I think our behaviour shows aspects of chimpanzees, bonobos and the dogs we’ve lived with for most of our evolution.
Different cultures will bring different parts of our heritage to the fore i.e. in a heirarchical/dominance culture the chimp part will be expressed etc.
For example, in the US (which is a more heirarchical culture) you’ll see some of the more grotesque chimp-like behaviours expressed in events like school shootings.
Bonobos and pan are sister species – they split off some time back after the split when our species branched off in a different direction.
As for dogs, have we not spent 10,000 years impressing our predilections on their gene pool?
I WISH we were more like bonobos. See, when two bonobos want something, they f*ck each other, then they split the, for example, banana. Humans, for the most part, appear to kill each other, then reap the spoils. If only were were more like them “crazy” jungle critters.
More specifically, female bonobos engage in explicit prostitution, and also in a great deal of female homosexual behavior.
I don’t think the less dominant males do the same thing, oddly enough.
Is that based off the experiment where female bonobos weren’t doing the tasks to get bananas but were still eating well? They basically banged the males who would do extra tasks to support them.
i think we were more a cross between chimps and bonobos in behavior, but i think we are still far too effected by the idea of demonizing sex and keeping a rigorous suppression of the “baser instincts” but the violence was still acceptable
we thought ourselves higher than animals in no way effected by their…instincts. the human body and sex were something base that could corrupt us, but fighting for your country was thought to be noble and not recognized to be more an animal trait.
bit ironic really. if we just enjoyed sex for the sex we’d be acting less like most animals
Violence and explosions are okay as long as there are no dirty words or naked people…
I made this interesting revelation a while back. Let’s say two films were made. One of me getting head and enjoying myself. The other of me getting fatally assaulted or simply fatally injured and then suffering and dying on camera.
Guess which one wouldn’t raise an eyebrow if shown to the public…
Well, there’d probably be a somber announcement that due to graphic content the following footage may not be appropriate for all viewers, but…yeah. There’s something wrong there.
In 1984 there’s all that stuff about how repressing sex makes people angry enough to follow The Party….
to be honest i think some of the violence shown might be helping us a bit. For instance, I found that the game Left 4 Dead is a good way for me to relieve stress. I can be violent without hurting others, same with movies, I can live vicariously through the character and release that urge for violence.
So long as there is a clear line that it is not okay to hurt others, i think it might be helpful…to some extent.
As for the sex being demonized, that’s still stupid and weird.
Pfft, I am already neck deep in the dead of video game characters. I have no platform to condemn stress relief via the countless death of digitial representation.
I’m just stating that as a culture people would rather watch me die than get head. As Diss said, there would probably be a graphic content warning. In the off chance I was horridly injured below the belt, there might be outcry if I flopped out of my shredded pants in my death throes. Other than that, not a peep.
Fair enough, you relieve stress… But when folk go on and on about how violence in the media couldn’t possibly affect real life it annoys me. Like you won’t be desensitised to it if you see it everywhere…. I think people just avoid cutting it out because then they’d have to come up with something decent in their films/TV programmes….
You would think me a horrid creature for what things I put my digital enemies through before they blip their last. However, in the face of actual injury, I still balk and am horrified, especially in those I care about.
A game is but a game. It is the person who decides what effects them in such things. Children are an exception but that is what parenting is for. The problem with violent content is that there is no qualifying of it. People expect a television to babysit their children and then blame the games or movies if their kids get the idea to beat each other up.
The Devil made me do it mentality has always been a logically weak argument.
Indeed… but do you not think that violence is a very ordinary thing now? Maybe it was always like that, but the attitude of the general population seems to be that violence isn’t a shocking thing. That probably isn’t helping matters…
Are you trying to rehash issues I have already stated? I do believe that as a society, I already said we were more inclined to accept violence over sex. So in that matter, you should already know my answer.
Of course it has gotten worse, Sex and Violence are both part of our human natures. Which one is more acceptable? Thus which one is more prevalent?
Why did you have us talk into a circle again?
Sorry, badly worded by me. It was a rhetorical question. I was pointing you to your earlier post and saying that it was part of society’s attitude rather than a devil-made-me-do-it thing…
Ah, apologies, this week is going to find me very irritable. You are right. I’ve just always been touchy about the violence desensitizing issue. I had a similar and very frustrating argument with Jack Thompson a few years back over email and it just made me bang my head on the wall.
You are correct, violence is very prevalent but that is why I stated my reasoning. It is prevalent because we made it the more acceptable of two things, sex or violence. Sex is sinful but we hardly hear a peep over violence anymore.
So yes, your words support my initial statement very well, thank you.
There’s correlation between desensetization and lack of empathy, but I think that’s got more to do with common causes than anything else. Desensitization is about losing an instinctive distate for injury. Empathy is lost when harm is seen as acceptable.
People whose morals function on ewww factor are broken down by exposure to violence, while those whose morals come from genuine empathy are often motivated to understand and care for others. Look at the number of people inspired to humanitarian work by experience of true deprivation.
I found that playing GTA: San Andreas let me tolerate working for Burger King for that year where I HAD to to keep my family fed. It was so nice to just tear through a fast food place in the game, take a deep cleansing breath, and be able to face work the next day.
DWN, I do like your point (and forgive me, but I don’t know where you mentioned it so I’m tacking it on here) about the role of parenting in all of this. I think that there has been senseless violence in media for a lot longer than we would like to believe. What were all the old bugs bunny cartoons but unrealistic violence. How often did Wile Coyote fall off a cliff only to jump right back up, which is sort of a dangerous message to kids. Parents need to have frequent conversations with their kids about the difference between fantasy and reality and what is and isn’t acceptable behavior. My parents were pretty much anti-censorship, I was allowed to watch whatever I wanted and read whatever I wanted. However, until I was a teenager we really only had one tv and my parents knew what we were watching and we always discussed real world/social issues and how they related to what we saw on tv. I think where we come into problems with today’s society is that so many parents just want to ban something questionable because it’s easier to deny access and feel like you’re being a good parent then to actually have to answer tough questions that your child might have as a result.
Precisely, context must be given to the information absorbed. I was into all sorts of violent video games. Never assaulted anybody and haven’t fired a gun since I was around 13-14 and that was before I could even afford games, let alone play them.
Well, and I forgot to add that since we had a very open family, I at a young age started gravitating away from horror films because I didn’t enjoy them. As an 8 year old I knew I would get nightmares if I watched them so I just didn’t do it. In regards to the sex vs. violence issue I never felt that I couldn’t talk to my parents about either subject, and that’s because they encouraged open respectful discussion at a young age.
Then you were quite fortunate. I pretty much had horrid encounters with sex and then figured the rest out for myself when I was of the age to be asking normally.
Yeah, I don’t buy the connection between violence and violent media, except inasmuch as violent people will be more likely to expose themselves to those media. I think, if you look both worldwide and historically, it would be hard to argue that horrible massacres and genocides never occurred prior to the advent of electronic media, or that it’s more prevalent in suburban white American neighborhoods than it is in, say, Darfur.
Still, I don’t think it’s possible to overestimate the impact of hateful propaganda campaigns like the one waged against Jews worldwide, especially following the publishing of Protocols of Zion.
I find violent video games to be a very safe and effective way of releasing pent up hostility. It doesn’t make me MORE aggressive. It makes me LESS aggressive, IRL at least.
And the mention of Jack Thompson gives me fits, DWM, just to warn you. That guy has his head so far up his ass…but anyway. I lieks teh Halo!!1!!111!!!
actually i am extremely squemish, despite the extremely violent videogames, shows, and books i use for entertainment. I still can not stand seeing someone injected with a needle. I cringe at even the sound of someone popping their neck. I balk at some of the simpliest of wounds because i simply can not stand to see others injured or broken as it were.
a game is a game, but life is life.
It is wrong to suppress sex. my earlier, badly expressed point was, if being open about violence can be helpful, then of course being open about sex should be. it isn’t alright to suppress natural instincts and make them out to be evil. you end up with all sorts of mental problems. just like if you tried to repress every violent urge you ever had instead of using something to channel it for the better.
Or at least channel it out of yourself.
Well, if you make sex evil and everybody still wants sex, then they have no recourse than to be evil as the sex won’t leave their brain as it is a natural part of the human psyche.
So yes, the book would be accurate in that suppressing sex increases frustration and thus anger and thus people wanting something to focus their anger on.
GODDAMN IT I WANT SOME SEX!!!!ELEBENTY!!
NOW! HST SMASH!
Ya, something like that.
The concept that sexual activity is dirty or evil is a toxic meme inherited from the three great Middle Eastern religions. This unnatural concept is imbedded in Western culture at every level though it seems to cause more angst to Americans. Maybe that is your problem.
I got my information from Marvin Harris’ anthropological work, and he was quoting scientists who observed bonobos in the wild. A male who has meat will be approached by females who offer sex, and then depart with a large chunk of it. If a female gets a sufficiently large chunk, then other females will approach her to make the same deal. The females also engage in homosexual sex for fun and bonding; non alpha-males, as one might predict from Kris’ post above, get no meat, no sex, and risk a beating if they approach the dominant males.
Well I have read that women’s sexuality is on a continuum while men’s seem to be more fixed so I not surprised.
Interesting bit though.
Sorry, not “appear” to kill each other, they actually do (humans).
Take this as you will…
Outsourcing Fail
Violent Primate conversation
Sarah Palin ad
Me getting a probably unrelated laugh at juxposition.
its a sniper hole but for tanks. ^^
Failure:
- When you think a wall in the middle-east is built from labor outsourcing
- When the poster comment is long
- When the poster comment is not even funny
Impenetrable*
Does no one get the reference to the proposed Australian firewall or something?
Ha ha ha! That photo is funny. Yeah… that’s when outsourcing has definitely failed!