THE WORD OF CHRIST
The Word Of Christ
Surprisingly indistinguishable from one’s personal opinion, actually.
(Becky Fisher of the film Jesus Camp)
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Lol News has hit a new low…
Or a new high. I’m kinda pissed that the best thing to come out of the BC era has been so hugely ignored. How those twits that followed him around manage to get more press then he does is still beyond me.
Shut up. Jesus Camp opened my eyes to the blasphemy upon human rights that is religion.
People like her need to be locked up and put away for a very long time for crimes against humanity.
She’d say the same about you…
Not crimes against humanity… criminal stupidity. Criminal stupidity so egregious that every breath she takes is a felony, and every word she utters is a capital offense.
It’s purely coincidental, but for some reason I’m reminded of the Little House on the Prairie episode where Nellie Oleson read her school essay, “Why Jesus Loves Me More Than Most.”
I thought that was Nancy Olsen?
I totally agree with you. Her camp practically brainwashes kids and does NOT let them think for themselves. Whatever she says, goes. Total cult leader…. it makes me so angry.
You should watch ‘Jesus Camp’. It’s a documentary about the Evangelical religion that she represents and the camp she runs. Watch that, then form an opinion. (Btw, she’s pretty messed up.)
So you accept that she is speaking for the supposed Christ?
Just the opposite.
Hey moses did, who is to say that she can’t. Just because he ideas are controversial? so was what moses said during his time and yet now he is viewed as a profit by all christians. Dont worry tho, i’m not arguing for her, im actually arguing that religion is a bunch of bull
Good argument. Bad grammar. I totally agree with you, but take more time to proofread
Have you SEEN the film? It’s disgusting. This wretched harpy has small children weeping in shame for their sins. Tell me, what vile sins has an 8-year-old committed that are worthy of such self-loathing? She yells at them for the horrible sin of having normal lives, for having friends without constantly trying to shove Jesus down their throats. A little boy who confesses to struggling with occasional doubt is looked upon with abject horror. A little girl says that it’s tough sometimes to remember that her dancing should be solely to glorify god and never “for the flesh” – who is the pervert who used a phrase with such sexual undertones to describe a little child’s dancing? Go watch this horrific film (or at least the clips available on YouTube) before you get all prissy about it.
It truly is vile.. how can anyone justify thrusting that kind of hefty guilt on such a young child?
Jake I could not have said it better myself.
I agree, Jake. Thank you.
Plus, apparently, these people are destroying the First Amendment to the US by trying to force evangelical Christianity down other people’s throats.
The First Amendment only applies to the actions of Congress, actually.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
Thus, the First Amendment has no bearing on what individuals, cities, states, and organizations do. The 500-and-change legislators on the Hill cannot legally make you join or leave any faith.
Actually an 8 year old is almost sinless, because he/she just barely reached the age of accountability.
Disgusting indeed, but having been raised in the midwest, my experience is that she’s pretty darn mainstream. What she’s doing is tried and true and has been the norm for much of America for a very long time. I’m 50 years old and was subjected to the same abuses she lays out at Jesus Camp in my day to day life as a child and my parents weren’t even religious. You got this from many adults – Teachers, coaches, other kids parents, it was the satus quo. She is the “normal” one based on the numbers, not us. I’m shocked that people don’t know this, but encouraged that those who don’t know that most of their country has been like this for decades are now finding out!
“most of their country” … you said having been raised in the midwest at the beginning of your post. maybe that’s just your personal life, and not everyone has that experiment? you need numbers and citations to say that this is “average”.
I’m disturbed by some of the content as well. As a parent of 5 children, I must state the importance of making sure your children are receiving the proper spiritual nurturing necessary, just like we need to feed them the proper nutrition for their bodies. On another note, we also need to show our children how to pray for others and themselves NOW because things are not getting any better for them in schools. My daughter was shunned in school (a 7 year old) for saying how much she loves Jesus and how Jesus is God. She was shunned to the point that when I was going to read the bible to the kids during the holidays, she violently shook her head and placed her hands on her ears saying she didn’t want to hear about Jesus. I was totally shocked and had to have a one on one conversation with the teacher over the phone about my daughter’s reaction and that she needs to cautiously speak with her that it’s ok for her to believe in God or Jesus, just like I told her that some people don’t want to hear about it. “No one should fear saying Jesus or God in school”, I told her. We settled the matter, but as you see kids are impressionable on both sides of the spectrum…those who want to suppress their freedom of speech about the love they have for Jesus and those who are like wolves in sheep clothing misleading our children.
Your post made me feel sorry for your indoctrinated children- I hope they become rational atheists just to spite you.
Why do you think your daughter felt compelled to talk about how much she loved Jesus!? Because Parents like you drive “the word of the Lord” down their children’s throats from a young age- telling children too you to question that Jesus watches them and loves them. In my day-to-day life I am surounded by rational people who cannot explain why they are Christian, simple answer: they were cursed (like me) with active Christian parents. However while I grew up to question the religion I was forced to believe, they never fealt the need- wrapped up their blanket of security- never needing to step out-side the box. Is this how you want your kids to grow up?
“It’s ok for her to believe in God or Jesus, just like I told her that some people don’t want to hear about it.”
So here we have someone teaching their children to understand other’s stances without being ashamed of their own…And that’s not enough for you? Jings…
Yes but she’s teaching her children about Christianity as the defualt state- she’s teaching them that “some people” don’t want to hear about Jesus. I think you misunderstand the power of that phrase.
Please remember that I too was eductated by Christian parents
I think you read too much into “some people.” It’s a very common, ordinary phrase.
“Some people” don’t believe in Jesus.
“Some people” don’t believe in atheism.
If you think that one of these sentences is absolutely fine and the other isn’t, you may have double standards.
If you are determined to find something wrong with a post, you will. She did not call atheists “fools” or “infidels” or “scum.” She called them people and taught her daughter that everyone has a different viewpoint.
I remember that you were educated by Christian parents and it sounds to me as though you are allowing that experience to unfairly colour your view of EJ.
And having Christianity as the default state? Well, what’s so wrong with that? If you have a family you can teach your child that atheism is the default state. As a Christian, I will find that wrong but will respect that because it is your family and your children.
It’s a little late, but well put, AC.
Agreed…It’s impossible to have a loving relationship with your kids and keep all your views to yourself. We all, as good parents, try to teach them the best we know how.
I seriously want her to look upon her own sins before she brings other people’s supposed wrongdoings into light. I hate people like this. What a horrid woman.
I enjoyed a quote from a recent-ish movie, The Island: (probably not exact word for word, but mostly)
“You know when you really want something, and you wish for it really hard? God’s the guy that ignores you.”
But that’s just a bit of luls.
This woman isn’t luls really. She’s obviously insane and, worryingly, there are more like her. What kind of God is worth living your life in such a way? Don’t do ANYTHING enjoyable (except praising God) because otherwise you go to hell!
Seriously. If all these insane Christians are going to be in heaven and I’m going to Hell, I’ll go with that. Seems like I’ll have the company of NORMAL people.
omg did you just call US insane? you guys are the insane ones.
I’d like to take that topic up with you at length. Please e-mail anonymous (.) wintershadow@googlemail (.) com
Why are you so intent upon debating with an 11-year-old?
toria, you just don’t get it. sin is blocking you heart. look at the world, how could murders and sex offenders be normal? i may have a short temper, but i don’t want anyone to go to hell. we are not insane. someday you will realize that. all those “normal people” won’t matter in hell. mark my words, they won’t. do you know what hell is? lava. fire. it is hotter than the sun and it will never and i mean never end. in heaven there are streets of gold. water that makes you never be thirsty again, same for the food. all of us , the people you mock, will have mansions of gold, while non-Christians will be burning.when Jesus says “depart from me evil doer, i never knew you.” that will be when you realize that your life was a lie. that you were and are wrong. that all of us “insane” people were right.
look up dr. vick young.
yes, i’m sure that’s the case. if you really think this, you need to think for yourself a bit. if non-Christians are burning, being tortured in hideous ways, etc, how is your god loving and forgiving, if he can condemn his own CHILDREN who weren’t strong enough to believe and made mistakes to eternal torture? how could you trust ANYthing that could do that to give you the promises you’ve stated? so you stated that sex offenders and murderers are not normal. i agree. you then state “all those ‘normal people’ won’t matter in hell”- you THEN proceed to state “non-Christians will be burning” so, you’re saying that everyone who isn’t christian is a murderer, sex offender, etc? if you think the rest of the world is insane, you need to take a logical, reasonable and thoughtful look at your life and your beliefs. you need to think in a STRAIGHT LINE, and admit there are holes you can’t cover up in any religion.
first off you completely misunderstood me. i didn’t say that ALL non-Christians are murderers or sex offenders. i just meant that is what a lot of the world seems to be. God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell. you can’t enter heaven unless your sins have been forgiven. and you are wrong about the holes in religion. i admit that we can’t understand everything. but Christianity is all true and all makes sense. we don’t know everything. i don’t know much anyway cause i’m only 11 anyway. and the line i think in is straight. and Christianity isn’t just religion, it’s faith.
Maybe you should finish grade five before you continue this line of straight thinking.
You’ll probably end up going atheist to spite your evangelical parents.
not likely. i’m already saved. and i will never deny God, even if there’s a gun in my face.
Would you deny god if he turned out to be whatever you would find totally depraved?
Never mind that that will never happen (whichever of us is right). Just make-believe, for a second.
You die, you go to the gates or what-have-you, and there is god, ready to forgive your sins. And you cannot stomach him, find him utterly despicable and repugnant.
Would you deny him then, or would you be wiling to repent your sins to someone visibly wallowing in the worst things you can imagine?
I’m not trying to put down faith or criticize religion. I just want to understand it, and what it’s followers believe.
Christianity as a religion is f*cking full of motherf*cking holes! Half of it doesn’t even make f*cking sense when applied to science (which we KNOW to be true) However I can understand your ignorance considering your age- please learn more about your own religion and then e-mail me so we can get this whole thing settled out.
Just some questions here.
How do you know that science is true?
Is it because that’s what your teachers have taught you?
Have you ever thought that maybe there are things that we can’t perceive? After all theoretical physics points to things that are untestable all the time.
Now if there are things that cannot be perceived how would one test them with the scientific method?
What I’m saying here is that maybe you should question what you so firmly accept as truth. I do. If I did not question my faith I would not really be a believer. I would be a mindless tool for whoever wished to guide me. Be it right wing politicians or corrupt and hateful false preachers.
Being that Midge is apparently some sort of troll that changes names, and as such unreliable for debate, I’ll field some of these questions.
No legitimate scientist will tell you anything is true, only that it is probable. To hold scientific findings (and science in general) as absolute truth is a fallacy; the nature of science is that if findings turn out to be incorrect, they can be corrected (as opposed to many religions, where things are considered absolute).
Both sides require an amount of faith to believe in. The difference, though, is that where religion offers truths based without evidence aside from “what they say/wrote”, science strives to find evidence for what it claims is real, and is probable. It starts with a theory, and instead of instantly claiming it to be the answer (“God did it”), methodically tests it to see if it’s correct. The former side is, by nature, one that refuses to be contradicted because then it loses its basis, where the latter welcomes it.
As for things untestable by scientific method, well, that’s what science is striving towards: being able to explain the nature of the universe, or at least planet earth, through scientific method. It’s gradual, and it takes a long time, and scientists know that. But that is why I have faith in science. Nobody claims to have all the answers, but only that they are seeking them, and that is something I can get behind.
I am glad to hear that you question what you accept as truth (and very glad that you brought up the nature of the unperceived
), because it is open-minded people like you that aid science in finding answers and open the minds of others to what is possible, even if the end really does turn out to be “God did it”.
I said “nature” way too many times. It’s one of those days…
Great post Veritas.
Thanks, Cow. I’m not even a science major… just a happy observer.
and because God is the way, the truth, and the light.
Do you know what hell actually is? Gehenna, an ancient garbage dump in Israel invoked in curses by Israelites against other Israelites.
Do you know where your image of hell comes from? An allegorical poem, written in the 14th century by an Italian man named Dante.
Look up the origins of what you spout off as truth before you claim it to be as such.
A description of Hell exists in the Bible as well in the Book of Revelations. It is described as “a lake that burns with fire and sulfur.” The images of Hell as a pit of fire or lake of fire are Biblical, they didn’t come from Dante, although his description of Hell is more commonly known, they aren’t far from the Bible.
Im not saying the Bible is necessarily correct, however, the beliefs expressed here are Biblical in origin, not just a commonly held misconception, as many aspects of Christianity are.
See “Gehenna” as written above. That is where the image in the Bible comes from.
Modern interpretation of Hell is far and away more than just a lake of fire, and so that is why I cited Dante.
I’m just wondering. How do you know these things “NObama”? Did your bible tell you so? And even then, why is the bible “God’s word”? You do realize that it was written by HUMAN BEINGS right? You really have no proof for your “Hell is fire. Heaven has streets of gold” sentiment. And don’t tell me that you just go “by faith” because I can go “by faith” that, the minute I walk into a dark alley, my imaginary friend will protect me from the muggers hiding around the corner, when in reality, they’ll just beat me down and steal my wallet, leaving me for dead.
2 timothy 1-4 states that Christians will go through troubled times. that is like what you said. i grew up in a trailer park and my life was trashy. that was a test of faith. (my dad says like a goldsmith gets through gold through fire, and that’s how God gets pure souls.) now i’m in a real house with a real life that i always wanted. i’m 11 now. God isn’t an “imaginary friend” yes i did get this from my Bible, and how do you have proof that it isn’t true? you can’t. and i do go by faith. i walk in faith, because i know the future is brighter. The Bible was not written by human, only human hands. God is the true author. and my opinion about the dark alley thing, who in their right mind would walk into a dark alley without a baseball bat anyway!?!? i sure as heck wouldn’t.
oh and one more thing, The Bible says that many people won’t believe in Jesus Christ
Did you say you were 11 years old?
yup.
People like you realy make me want to kill things and burn down churches- I’m going to go and get my lighter.
Now if that was a joke, it would be ok, except someone actually DID torch the church in Wasilla once Palin got back there. See, it’s not funny when you do more than joke about it. Duh.
have fun. i’m going to heaven when i die. kill me then. i don’t care.
Someone make a note of this moron’s post.
The level of your indoctrination is sickening. Children shouldn’t be brainwashed into believing something, you shouldn’t be introduced to religion before you’re old enough to make your own decision. As it is your parents are probably evangelical maniacs who brainwashed you from the moment you were born. Sad, really.
Oh, and if you’re 11, you didn’t ‘grow up’ in a trailer park. You spent some of your life there, is all, and then your parents made more money or whatever. You’re still growing up, and it looks like you have quite a long way to go.
Ummmm, we have a little thing called “avatars” here. That’s that little geometrical shape next to your name. See, unless you are too stupid to figure out how to put another email address in the box then you can change your name all you want to and we still know it’s you. So Midge/Tony/Whatever, go pimp your email and trollish comments elsewhere.
If the Bible was written with the finger of God, and sent down in a flash of lightning I bet fewer people would read it, claiming it was fake. No, it was God speaking THROUGh men, telling exactly what to write so that it really does correlate with everything else the Book says, even though it was written by multiple authors. There were eyewitness accounts and testimonies for many of the books. Of all the people who saw Jesus, only a few wrote books about Him, why is that, hm?
As for what Heaven or Hell appears to be, there have been testimonies of visions about it, few exact descriptions. But God describes these few details such as the lake of fire, so on and so forth.
“Of all the people who saw Jesus, only a few wrote books about Him, why is that, hm?”
Actually, quite a lot of people wrote about him objectively. Even then, though, that’s like saying “of all the people in the world play music, why did only Beethoven write ‘Ode to Joy’? The notes were all there, they just needed someone to organize them.” The creative spirit does not reside in everyone, and in those it does, they do not all make the same things. It makes sense that in a time when few were literate and fewer still could write allegorically that only a few of those few would write the Bible.
As for the Hell described in the Bible, it’s described as a lake of fire because there was an actual “lake of fire” in ancient Israel. People write of what they know – an ancient Israelite would no doubt use such a place as a comparison to punishment, especially when it is already commonly invoked in oral curses.
Wow, your God is an incredibly evil being.
Who cares if you think that? Frankly, I prefer people who acknowledge that God might indeed be real – they just don’t LIKE Him very much. Or they maybe even hate him.
Now where were YOU exactly, when he set the mountains in place and caused the hawk to soar? Where were you when he filled the oceans and flung the stars to the far reaches of space exactly? I always get a kick out of people thinking they are the arbiters of what God should be and shouldn’t be. To be honest, it makes me laugh even though it probably shouldn’t. It’s just so bizarrely absurd.
The same people that care about his opinion that God is incredibly evil are probably the same ones that care about what kind of people you prefer: nobody.
That was a hell of a long way to go for an insult. Ended up being pretty lame.
Try harder.
It wasn’t an insult. I only figured that if you realized you’re vehemently arguing over silly things on an internet comment board and telling people what -you- prefer, you’d realize what a waste of time it is. This could be said about many people, but you in particular seem to expend quite a lot of effort. I’d imagine that with all your condescension, you’re frowning a lot, and we all know how that saying goes.
I suppose I should have figured you’d take any truth aimed in your direction as insult and attack, though, so that’s “my bad”.
So it wasn’t silly when they were arguing it, only when I offered my opinion. Nice. And that was another long way to go that ended up lame. When in doubt always say “Hey, I’m just trying to HELP you and be NICE to you and you take it as an insult.” LOL
You do know this is words on a screen, right?
It was silly when you decided to, specifically, talk about what kind of people you prefer. Where does that come into legitimate debate?
I do know it’s words on a screen. I also know that unless someone is typically defensive, they don’t get offended very easily.
Why did that make it silly? There should, for clarity, be a “though” between “Who cares what you think” and “I prefer”, however. It would read much more clearly. Because the person I was addressing was of the type I prefer – those who acknowledge God might be real, they just hate Him. That’s no more silly than anything else on this thread, or on this site, or on any humor site or any lol in existence. It just “is.” You’re being silly nitpicking, actually.
Well, when you’re debating ideas, you should try to avoid talking about personal preferences, because it diminishes the strength of your argument. It’s better to say, “I agree, and here’s why” and then obviously lead into the points. It gives more force and prevents the reader from viewing it as an individual opinion and more as a solid concept, if that makes sense.
I suppose I am being silly nitpicking, though, because not everyone treats these sorts of discussions as debates. I thought a bit of constructive criticism may help.
You’d come across a lot better if you’d just acknowledge the obvious – you went too far for an insult and it came off lame, now you’re spinning. And spinning it as “just trying to help” – but I guess you learned that from others here – hint: it doesn’t work.
Obvious to whom? Your assumption is based off of the idea that I care about your opinion (as above) of a so-called lame insult. I was not insulting you, I was merely pointing out a fallacy. I suppose I was right in my previous statements, though, that in your wounded-dog-in-a-corner defensiveness you’d see any kind of criticism as an attack.
Or… you’re just a troll. It can be hard to tell, sometimes, who’s legitimately screwed in the head and whose just fuckin’ with ya.
Oh well, that means he can get away with the very un-Godlike qualities he exhibits in the Bible – arrogance, spite, pettiness, insecurity, rage, jealousy…
My God is an incredibly evil being? Maybe you should take just a slight look at the things he promotes, which the world could use more of. :/
Well so is your god. You’re Athiest and “there is no god”? Human nature is an incredibly evil being.
The problem with your argument is that it becomes very hard to see what your God promotes when so many claim to speak for him.
Right off the bat, you have the three Abrahamic religions – Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. All three worship the same root God, but all three have differing ideas about what He stands for. Beyond that there are the hundreds of different sects of all the religions, saying some of those things are right, but some are different.
Religions are judged by the words and actions of their followers. When nobody can make up their mind about what God is really saying and there are three holy books that contradict each other. Which group is promoting the “right” message, and who are you to say so?
A-theists- do not worship humans as gods. They recognize humans as human. My own personal view as an agnostic is that humans are not “evil” until something makes them that way (nurture, not nature), and in most cases this is reversible with the right treatment or rehabilitation (i.e., not just throwing people into prisons, but actually teaching them to be productive members of society; see Japan’s rehabilitation system). Many would agree with me, I’m sure. Humans can be incredibly evil AND incredibly good, and I think the charity performed by religious groups is a perfect example of that. It’s humans being human.
Dude, you’re friggin” nuts! What possible proof do you hold that speaks of these things? Enjoy your “mansions of gold” psycho.
A rather literal interpretation of Hell. Honestly if it were just fire and lava eventually you’d get used to it. The truth is no one really knows what hell is, the only thing we know is that it is a state of being completely detached from God. No goodness no beauty no peace no joy. Another interesting view of hell is the purgatory that CS Lewis writes about in The Great Divorce. Though fiction is portrays a place where people drift ever further apart and never feel truly comfortable. Read the book to get a better Idea. I choose to be a Christian not because I’m afraid of hell, though I am a bit I guess, but rather because the Son of God, God Incarnate, chose to die so that I could be closer to God and hear his voice. As far as sin is concerned I try not to. Not because I’m told that sinning is bad, but rather because Christ took upon himself all the sin that ever was and ever will be. If I can avoid heaping anymore pain on someone who would die for me I will.
Hm, 11 year old eh. Well. Hm. I will pray that your faith will develop as mine did. I used to make judgmental statements too. But remember that the scripture says “Judge not lest ye be judged.” In my prayers Nobama.
@ Talisman
Aye, an unfortunate fact that many Christians are unaware of… Fire and Brimstone, Lake of Fire hell comes from two sources: a book written by a man named Dante Alighieri, and the curse “I hope you burn in hell”; this comes from an ancient Jewish curse invoking the fires of Gehenna (the Valley of Hinnom), a garbage dump in ancient Israel that was said to burn so brightly it turned the skies red at night. One of the most important aspects of death to an ancient Israelite was a proper burial. To be burned with the garbage was an unbelievable nightmare, and so its imagery was used often to scare people into good behavior.
Is the CS Lewis interpretation you speak of the one where you live in London, and everyday is rainy? And everyday, a plane leaves for heaven, but you never go…
OH sure. God doesnt want to save 50% of the worlds population right. Non-Chistains will be saved If the believe in GOD THE FATHER.
if yous read your silly hooman bible
you god guy very mean in most of it, murdering babies and causing plagues
what make you hoomans thinks he wants to even save 10% of you%
jake, anyone under the age of accountability (age of knowing right from wrong) which is said to be 12, is not acountable for sin, because they didn’t know it was wrong. and for future reference, we are ALL sinners. look up Dr. Vick Young. he may be able to answer any questions anyone may have. and which film? Passion of Christ? ya good movie.
no, the film Jesus Camp. he states it. read the posts above before you post.
Vick Young seams to be your roll model mate. Every “christian” seams to have a roll model. Maybe you should broaden your horizons my friend. <.<
I really do wonder what you think of all of those television evangelists out there.
*role model
first of all he is my preacher not my role model. you said roll model and it is supposed to be role model. i am a Christian. Oh and I’m 11 so what the heck is an evangelist? anyway, my role model is God. there are views of Vick Young that not even i agree with. but this is all true not an opinion. if you don’t believe now, it will come back to bite you in the but later.
oh and i’m the same nobama as earlier
oh and by the way, you misunderstood the “of the flesh” thing. it means don’t dance to glorify yourself, but dance to glorify God. the parable’s might have got ya too.
I STRIKE THEE DOWN FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH! And this lady is part of a cult, even other Christians don’t accept her as being part of Christianity. Lighten up. It’s just a picture.
Christianity is a cult as well, you know.
So are Judaism, Buddhism, Scientology, Hinduism, Islam, and I can’t think of any other religion.
You would be hard pressed to actually prove that every religion is a cult. Considering you can leave some religions, like Christianity.
Like I said, Christianity is most certainly a cult. Cult is simply defined as any group following a certain belief structure, and usually with some sort of initiation or semblance of membership. The military is a cult, one I am a proud member of. It’s only through modern syntax that we have assigned a negative meaning to the word “cult,” due to the nature with which the media portrays particularly nutso cults. But in its base definition, cult isn’t a bad thing at all, and calling religion a cult is simply a matter of defining how they operate (indoctrination, for example), not of defining their intentions.
What… cogent analysis of the word ‘cult.’ The bit about the military, and being a proud member, um, brilliant?! I love it when people take the argument to a different level like that. The heart of PK, you has it.
Just by your word choice, I would like to let you know that I am now a fan of yours. Well put, by the both of you.
Well put, in that sense I would agree totally. Unfortunately I have been a victim of the media on the meaning of the word “cult”. In that sense though any following is then a cult? So long as it has some means of initiation?
Pretty much, I’d agree with that assessment. Now, you COULD get into the nitty gritty about numbers and structure, and all that jazz. My collegiate social psychology class went into great depth about the essentials for a cult to really form, things like the charismatic leader, the isolation, the process of getting almost brand new recruits to start recruiting as well (making them teach what they’ve learned helps them form a deeper bond with the teachings), that sort of stuff. All of which, by the way, the military has/does.
So, you could say that a simple “following” isn’t necessarily a cult, such as 5 year olds who follow a 6 year old simply because he’s the biggest. But were the 6 year old to make a clubhouse where he and his followers spent all their time and recruited other 5 year olds to join the group, then you could be getting closer… 
Well done.
Agree one hundred percent. The isolation is but an aspect that comes as a result, the leader usually isolates his group at times, but are they not part of the group even when they are in public? That is just me being a nit pick so never mind that.
I am a proud christian, and I find this woman terrible.
Good statement, not necessarily the right place?
Or, as we say on PK: “Nesting Fail”
Same thing in fail blog, I was actually asking him how he felt on the subject.
Oh. Oops. My bad.
Meh its all fine, I was a bit ambiguous in my intentions anyways.
Um… isn’t pride a sin?
yes, pride is a sin.
Amen to that! Christians can be bad and stupid just like everyone, we all know that; but lets not let this take away from Jesus’ glory, don’t let one pea spoil the glorious pod
but it isn’t one pea, it’s the whole flaming bushel, and they’re also the loudest and most recognized –
Ya, its best to not provoke his type. They may get to spewing hellfire and stuff for countering Christianity. He has to realize it is more than just one, it is more like 1000 of them. Granted 1000/10000000 is small, 1000 itself is still big and capable of growing.
i don’t even know what to say to that other than, i’m not going to let that bother me. all i can say is your wrong.
how do you know that is all? who knows? could be most of Christianity for all we know.
oh and for future reference3 i’m not Catholic, i’m non-denominational. (and am i crazy or were there only like 300 comment’s last night?)
Definitely crazy.
No there was about 800 two days ago.
Um, isn’t pride a sin?
Then what is the difference between a cult and a community? Or a cult and an organization?
purpose, entry requirements…. i belong to aarp – it’s an organization – members have things in common, but no body is required to take any sort of oath, just reach a certain age…
i live in a community – 40,000+, i have things in common with some, but not everything; the only requirement to to belonging to this community is to live within it’s city limits; a cult typically requires some type of isolation from others, demands that members not be in contact with family and friends if they disagree with the group, cults also usually have a single leader (typically charismatic) who decides how the group lives (code of conduct, etc) cults also use punishment such as shunning to control the behavior of members…..
I used to say that Christianity was not a cult because it didn’t have an inner circle with secret knowledge. Then I heard about the Irish report on the rape, beatings, and systematic abuse of children in R.C. schools… and that one woman in Canada who was regularly raped as a child by her parish priest, and that the church had been getting complaints about him for fifteen years previously and just kept moving him. They don’t have doctrinal secrets — unless you count the policy written by the current Pope excommunicating anyone who admitted that there was sexual abuse by priests. So maybe the Roman Catholic church is a cult. On the other hand… They commit crimes on a grand scale, extort money from the gullible by threatening them with magical curses and by promising to lift the curse if you follow all their instructions, conspire to conceal despicable crimes by their members…. So maybe they’re an organized crime family under “Ratzo, My-Way-or-the-Highway, il Papa.” Thoughts? Wouldn’t the R.C.’s consistent actions and policy count as racketeering under U.S. law?
Inner circle?
Secret knowledge?
Of course- the Vatican.
Racketeering…I love it!
Um, you don’t seem to be very well-informed on religions. Or on the definition of the word “cult.”
The difference between a cult and a religion? Political clout.
I would dare say that all religions may be viewed as a cult.
Christianity is a widespread religion, really. A “cult” is a different worldview kind of sect that claims to be Christian, but has differing views about Jesus, Life, Death, so on and so forth. Just to clarify.
A “cult” is not strictly related to Christianity, nor do they all claim to be Christian. Sometimes they are just a CULT, and don’t claim to be dependent on other religions.
And eddie- if you clicked this comment, goodnight! It’s three in the morning here; I’m out.
That movie, scared the crap out of me!
I’ve never been happier to not be associated with a religious organization.
And the kids in that movie has the most soulless eyes i’ve ever seen!
If you thought that was scary (and it was, though I do not agree the kids had soulless eyes ffs) you ought to see “homegrown Jihad”. Or even this short video (link behind my name) from Palestinian children’s television. That’ll put hair on your a**. Christians aren’t the ones going to be suicide bombers, no matter what the crazy Jesus camp lady says.
“Christians aren’t the ones going to be suicide bombers, no matter what the crazy Jesus camp lady says.” Well with the mainstream anti-abortion thing I can agree with that.
I will have to check those videos out. but I will admit most religious fundamentalists scare me.
Actually, fundamentalists really arnt that scary, except for the Muslim ones. I can’t think of any christian, hindu, jew, or buddist who would kill for their religion. The fact is, despite what you see in Hollywood, radicals just tend to be creepy, not violent.
Thank you, that is so true.
No, it isn’t. Google the words ‘radical christian terrorist’, you ignorant fool.
All “radical Christian terrorists” are denounce by mainstream Christianity, can you say that about muslim terrorist?
Yes, actually. I’m pretty sure mainstream Muslim leaders denounce their own terrorists.
They do. The Muslim Council here in the UK abhor
the terrorists’ activities.
Never hear a peep out of them in the msm. If they were so against it they should be screaming it from the rooftops. Now, I know that it could be dangerous to their health… so I will give them that. You don’t have Christians putting out “fatwah” or whatever it’s called against other Christians because they buck the radicals.
Google Captain Gordon James Klingenschmitt. Here he is praying for the death of Reverend Barry Lynn and Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation:
“One-Minute Prayer: Let us pray. Almighty God, today we pray imprecatory prayers from Psalm 109 against the enemies of religious liberty, including Barry Lynn and Mikey Weinstein, who issued press releases this week attacking me personally. God, do not remain silent, for wicked men surround us and tell lies about us. We bless them, but they curse us. Therefore find them guilty, not me. Let their days be few, and replace them with Godly people. Plunder their fields, and seize their assets. Cut off their descendants, and remember their sins, in Jesus’ name. Amen.”
Yes, you do. Anti-abortionists vs. doctors, Christian or otherwise, and the people who work for/with/near them.
This anti-abortion thing is soooo overblown. It’s NOT condoned and it’s even very publicly condemed by mainstream Christianity. These are random crazies and not representative at all.
@ Trolldujour under (or above) me
This is the perfect example of my other reply to you. Anti-abortion terrorists are overblown? Guess what else is overblown: Islamic terrorists.
Why do you think you never hear a peep out of them? Could it be because whatever shitty news feed is going into your head focuses on BAD news and not good? Or that you’re just not looking in the right place?
99% of Muslims are not terrorists, just as 99% of Christians are not. It’s the vocal >1% that get all the attention, though, and it’s a sad state of affairs.
yes. yes you can. most Muslims aren’t fundamentalists, and terrorism is most definitely NOT embraced by the mainstream Islamic community. they’re still just as human as any other religion following people, they’re still people. some are going to be violent, and most are going to abhor it. think about what you say next time, you look like an idiot.
It is so untrue. Some Christians think non-Chistians should not be allowed to live in the USA and yet others believe we have no rights under the constitution. Ex- President Bush was a prime example.
When did Bush ever say that? I don’t remember that.
August 27, 1987 – It was Bush Senior, not Shrub. He said that he didn’t think atheists should be considered as citizens. The founding fathers must be so proud….
*cough* The Covenanters *cough*
*splutter* Crusades, The Zealots, *cough*
“ahem” self-hating Western postmodern pseudo-intellectuals “cough” Saladin the Magnificent “sigh” Turkish Islamic Imperialism “ahem” people who only regurgitate mindless catch phrases rather than coming up with original thoughts “lawdy lawdy”
Careful there, s-phus, that uphill battle is on a slippery slope.
Their point is, that all religions are equal… in how full of shit they are.
Also “lawdy lawdy?” You do realize that’s a double edge sword you’re swinign’ there.
Well, I could write “Bismallah, al rahman, al rahim”, but I have a funny feeling no one would understand.
Go figure…
But someone got the sisyphus thingie! I’m SO excited!
And my point is….it is a never-ending source of amusement to me that many atheists, agnostics and extheists condemn the religious for their intolerance but are absolutely intolerant of religion-especially their birth religions.
There has to be a great truth there…I wonder if I can figure it out.
“it is a never-ending source of amusement to me that many atheists, agnostics and extheists condemn the religious for their intolerance but are absolutely intolerant of religion-especially their birth religions.”
As an atheist I’ve gotta disagree there. Just about all atheists are entirely tolerant of all religions (up until the point they screw someone over). Most may be quite verbally opposed to it, but never do anything to stop someone else from practicing (unless it screws someone over). The reason most Ex-theists are very loudly opposed to their birth religion is that once you’ve experienced the whole deal you tend to be much more knowledgeable about the crap that goes on in there.
Our definitions of Tolerance may be different here though, goddamn English…
I’m certainly not Theist (though I may be a Deist); but one thing about atheists that makes me laugh is that most are still locked into a binary mindset. “EITHER the religion around me is true, OR all religion is false.”
Personally, I lean towards “There probably is a Divine Something, but no religion on earth actually understands it well enough to speak intelligently about it.”
Except maybe Buddhists. They’ve never had evangelists, or wars over doctrine. Buddhists are pretty cool in my book.
That’s why I’m Agnostic. It’s the perfect spiritual choice for procrastinators.
i tried becoming an agnostic once, but kept forgetting to fill out the application
Well its more of you are waiting for proof. True you don’t do much searching, meh I guess you are procrastinators.
I’ll get back to you on that.
@Emperor — actually when i was young i did a lot of searching for what fit and made me feel whole. here i am decades later, even more content in my faith; but i am still a procrastinator with so many things
Just remember we are never to old or too young to continue that search. Another thing, it is easy to grow old on the outside, it is fun to remain young on the inside. I find being a loose Catholic, and questioning the world I perceive has helped me grow tremendously as a person.
hahahaha… agreed.
that is what tickles my funny bone about so many evangelical types — that if such an entity exists that was able to create the universe and all that it contains, how the heck could the human brain be able to not only ’see’ all of it, but comprehend such an entity fully? not too many years ago people swore up and down on their salvation that the sun circled the earth, that the earth was flat, that there were monsters in the seas that would eat them if they sailed too far from land, that if you tossed an accused witch in water and she floated, she was a witch (never mind she was more fluff than not) but if she sank she wasn’t, that there was nothing smaller than what could be detected by the human eye…. yet they ‘knew’ all there was to know about their god who created everything?
things have to be broken down into small, simple peices so that your audience can understand them – hence the simple stories in their book. the more you learn, the more you realize there is more to learn.
The quest of science. Always seeking never finishing.
Science changes all the time, and no, they didn’t know everything about him. They don’t claim they know everything about him in the bible. It is a choice of faith.
“how the heck could the human brain be able to not only ’see’ all of it, but comprehend such an entity fully?” – Am I understanding this right? You think we can see and understand the entire universe? That gave me a laugh!
No, DuJour, you are, in fact, getting exactly the opposite meaning from what Bad Fairie said.
thank you pm
You betcha!
@ emperor – not waiting for proof that your belief structure works for some, nor am i waiting for the rapture or any other such proof – why would someone like me need proof of something than doens’t matter? that point only holds water if you think everyone is supposed to be christian or wants to be christian for that matter…
Oh, no I was merely making a comment on the quick research I had done on agnostics in wiki. That you are awaiting knowledge before doing anything. I am not trying to force anything upon you. I do not even fully listen to my own religion. I don’t think everyone want to be Christian. Though is something doesn’t matter are you really agnostic or actually atheist. I found in their definitions that agnostics acknowledge something is there and are awaiting proof so that they have actual knowledge of it. Atheists just believe it is all wrong, then they branched to pantheists and such. I hope I did not offend.
i see, didn’t get where you were coming from before.
Glad I was able to clear it up without causing any damages.
.
Tolerance is a tough word, as it depends on the person defining it. That, I feel is why we have broken it into tolerance levels.
I hate to burst your bubble partner but there’s no such thing as a “birth religion.” We are all born atheists. we have to be taught to believe in God. Those of us who learn to think for ourselves, grow up and return to a natural state. one in which the brain is actually used.
state. One … You want to argue that any religious person does not use their brain, and that it is natural to not believe in God. Though that last part sounds off even to me, you are correct, we are born without a religion. We learn our religion, just as we learn how to interact with our society. We learn our language, culture and history. That is what we do, we learn things, we must develop. This helps shape us into who we are. People who learn a religion, have the values of the religion instilled in them, if they choose to continue following it. People who don’t learn a religion often adopt the values of the society in which they are a part of. In rare cases they develop their own set of values.
I am not saying that religion is as necessary as all of those, not in the least bit at all. All I am saying that it is unfortunate that you lump all religious people into a group that does not think for themselves. One thing I must add is that in Christianity, you are encouraged to ask questions of your religion. This is important as many teachings are parables and not true stories. You are allowed to question the validity of your God, He only asks you to repent in the end. Well pending His actual existence. Pascals wager comes into play here.
Please if you want to represent the agnostic or atheist, please do so in a better manner.
I don’t need to “represent” anyone or anything my friend. I am what I am. A thinking human being who doesn’t believe in talking snakes, magic apples or human sacrifice. A person who spent many years as a passionately committed Christian. Pouring over the “word”. Devouring it daily. (cover to cover several times) in a genuine attempt to learn how to walk as a “man of God.”
Unfortunately, what I learned was that the being described in that book is not an omnipotent, benevolent creator, worthy of worship, but instead is a demented, genocidal, megalomaniac, worthy only of fear and loathing.
As far as the Morality issue you chose to bring up goes. Every single nonbeliever that I personally associate with holds a higher personal standard than any Christian I ever met.
Please don’t take any of this as a personal attack. I have nothing against you or any other of the “faithful.” Having said that however. It is my personal opinion that religion is the single worst evil ever to befall mankind.
Cheers
Stephen
Due to your tone, I could not be offended at all. I thank you for presenting yourself well.
Those stories were just meant to be lessons not direct translation. I myself personally find attempting to read the “Good Book” from beginning to end and then attempting to live my life by its guidelines a little weird. On the whole the only lesson from the Bible I actually took to heart was the Golden Rule. Nothing more, yes as a Catholic I am told the Jesus suffered for my sins, etc etc. I am allowed to question the validity of this myself, which I do often. I just think that regardless of one’s faith background or lack there of you would be hard pressed to find a person with better values than to treat any person as well as you would like to be treated. I understand how you could dislike the Bible and its fantastical stories. (I would like to use the fantasy definition of that word in this instance.) One reason I am not a Bible belter, but rather a loose following Catholic.
I feel that almost with anything, that if you immerse yourself into it fully, you will find faults with it and grow tired of it. A great thing about atheism is that you can never immerse yourself too much. You can’t over-rationalize everything, as you can always break it down further to a more reasonable response.
Morals based on what a book written 2000 years ago seem a bit outdated. That is why I only took the lessons and not the outlining of how one should act. I daresay my morals would not differ that much from thine own. I respect elders, apply the Golden rule, generally value life and the time I have given. A more devout Christian would probably have substituted much about Christ, what he did, how he said I should act and such. Though as I said, I much rather take the parables for what they were, lessons on how one should act, not on how one must act. So in that sense I do what I feel is right in the current situation, not based on an outline given to me by my faith.
Cheers good sir,
Emperor.
@Stephen Van Tuyl — just came back from checking your website — most impressive photos! where was the shot of the columbia gorge taken? it looks familiar, but….80 miles of scenery is a bit much to remember of the top of ‘my’ brain…
@bad fairie- Thanks for the visit. I appreciate it! The photo in question was taken at the look-out near Multnomah Falls.
@emperor
“One thing I must add is that in Christianity, you are encouraged to ask questions of your religion. ”
i so beg to differ on this — in more than on instance, from more that one denomination, i’ve been told flat out by elders that i didn’t need to worry whatever i was asking questions about.
@stephen – thought it was from over in that area, but i’s been a heck of a long time since i ws last there
@Faire I didn’t say you would get answers.
Um it may just be that I am speaking from my personal religion (Catholic) but I have asked questions, mostly being told that they were meant as lessons not true accounts. (Old testament)
So yes I was encouraged to ask questions.
Just to stir the pot Emperor. Try asking this question. What kind of monster would orchestrate an atrocity like Passover?
I will, but I have a feeling it was to strike down the unworthy, which always puzzled me how God goes through a makeover in the New Testament. He wants so many people to come to Christianity but kills so many Egyptians. I can assume that he was setting up for the 10 commandments. You know the false idols. Though I will ask this question.
Listen to what you just said my friend.”it was to strike down the unworthy”. Do you honestly believe that all those children were evil? That every family from which the first born was taken were evil? Is it not more likely that the majority were just normal people like you and I, going through their daily lives struggling to raise their children and pay the bills? It was by Pharoah’s order that the Children of Israel were held captive. The people had no say in the matter. Yet God, in his “infinite wisdom” decided to slaughter all those innocent children and bring horrendous grief and suffering into the hearts of all those parents because he was pissed off at one man. That’s mass genocide any way you look at it my friend, and the evil rests with the perpetrator of the crime. Think about this while you ponder the “pat answer” you get when you ask your question.
Of course I do not believe that. I am stabbing at the response I will get. You would think such a powerful being would be able to do what Zeus did daily and just zap him with a nice bolt of lightning. Not like they had windows back then.
“Is it not more likely that the majority were just normal people like you and I, going through their daily lives struggling to raise their children and pay the bills?”
I appreciate that I may have fooled you. I am but a 20 year old. Just a phone bill and school bills at the moment. I hope that I have presented myself well enough up until this point to actually make me seem wise beyond my years. I hope this does not discredit my future contributions but I had to set it straight.
Cheers,
Emperor.
*gasp* The emperor is a fraud!! He’s just a boy!
(Just kidding. Yeah, you sound more mature than your average 20 year old.)
Thanks. I just hope I don’t get discredited in the future. I like my current standing.
No-one is going to discredit you my friend. Your opinion carries just as much weight as mine or anybody’s. Just make sure it is actually your opinion and not that of your priest, teacher or parents. What you choose to believe in or not to believe in is your decision alone and should be born of intelligent research and use of your logical mind. Ask questions and demand real answers. Don’t let them feed you statements like ” The human mind can’t comprehend the ways of God.” or “you just have to take it on faith.” These are nothing more than “blankets” they use to throw over inconvenient questions for which they have no intelligent answers. Embrace your doubts and above all, listen to your own inner voice. Our conversation tells me that you are an intelligent man. Use that!
Keep smiling
Stephen
Thanks, and I have nothing but the same to say about you as well. I thoroughly enjoyed out discussion here and greatly value the input you well, put forth.
Thanks again.
Emperor.
@Emperor
“Those stories were just meant to be lessons not direct translation.”
Unfortunately, that is where so many disparities in modern Christianity come from. Nobody can decide what anything was meant to be, or what it is meant for. Some decide the Story of Creation to be literal, as I’m sure you know. Others call it allegorical (I actually had a very interesting lesson in high school that pointed out how similarly the 7-days method ties with the Earth’s actual development). In the end, everyone thinks one thing is right and another is wrong, and we draw our borders to separate from others. This is also the reason for so much of the manipulation in religion. Such is the nature of the task of trying to interpret a thousands-year-old book.
This is why I (a former Catholic and avid theology student, now Idon’tknowwhat, also 20 years old
) have faith (keyword) in science. Nothing is sacred, and scrutiny and interpretation are encouraged; there is also no possibility of a (seriously scientific) splinter sect to diverge and wage war over which theory is true or not true. It’s happening now and it is empirical, so there is very little chance to distort it because of time and lack of evidence.
This is why I bounce back and forth between the idea of religion (not the religious) being, maybe not evil, but flawed in nature. It is too open to interpretation and manipulation, and invokes too many strong emotions to be a valid explanation of reality.
I kind of forgot where I was going with this post, because it’s late and I got very little sleep last night. I hope it’s food for thought for you and others, though.
You are quite right, there is much debate on the literal acceptance of the Bible. Personally, when a book offers up a story of creation that clashes with common sense, well I have trouble accepting it. I trust my scientific mind over my spiritual one many a times. (For Seth) What we need more of is science.
I know that dinosaurs existed, it is tangible proof, had the bible mentioned that somehow dinosaurs were there but killed off by the will of god quickly, well that is more plausible. Though you would still have to pluck my eyes out to prevent me from seeing the wool. I therefore accept most stories from that book as lessons rather than recitations of actual events. If these hardcore religious types used some scientific and logical deduction, or if they had any interest in the actual truth at all rather than blind faith; well we wouldn’t have this nice debate to discuss how people interpret the bible.
I believe in both science and genesis 1. Nobody writes a scientific report in verse form: it’s a poem for goodness sake…
Science tells us what happened, the poem tells us why…
I would say the poem more of postulates as to why, we don’t want to sound pious and proclaim we got it right. As in all science let us leave room for error.
@AC
Well, they didn’t have the scientific method back then.
This, I think, is another example of what I was talking about. I do not find Genesis 1 to be a poem more than just a creation story meant to be pretty and meaningful like every other creation story, Christian, Navajo, Hindu, or any other, because they simply did not have the methods back then.
Who knows!
Well aye… Every culture has a creation story just like a load of them have flood stories (In Greek stories it’s “Deucalion’s ark”)… If all we get out of all of them is that “God created the Earth” and “God judged but showed mercy to the good man” then that’s not so bad…
@AC
Hehe, I agree, that’s not so bad at all. I think we can leave it to those two messages and not create an organization around it, you know?
(Although I think the Earth was just a happy accident… but that’s a discussion for another time).
Now then, it’s almost 4 AM, and I need to be getting to sleep. Nice talking with you all.
You guys should get a chat/IRC channel going.
So did you flunk history class or try to claim religious exemption to keep from learning just how violent and death-obsessed Xity is?
… Another one, it is Christianity not Xity.
double fail: it’s xianity not xity
nothing personal in the following emp, just a good spot to either stir up a bees nest or put out a smoldering fire
X= greek letter chi often seen in ancient manuscripts intwined with P (greek letter for rho) which are the first 2 letters christ in greek. emperor constantine I added this symbol to flag
)
for more details see:
{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christogram} so this isn’t an effort by the secular to remove christ from christmas (even though it is a pagan holiday that the rc co-opted to entice followers
Oh, I know but I made a reference above, in my conversation with braak about why it is important to see Christ in Christianity. I compared it to changing Allah’s name to S-h, S representing the most important part of the name. I have no problem with it in general. Though if you are going to attack Christianity (not you fairy referencing the other guy) have enough respect for the religion and its followers to call it by its real name. Would be as disrespectful as to call atheists just theists.
wouldn’t be disrespectful to call an atheist a theist, but it would be kind of ignorant since they are two different things:
.
atheist: someone who denies the existence of god
.
theist: one who believes in the existence of a god or gods
.
whereas using an x in place of christ in long words is accepted by most as a shortcut in writing and has no connotations other than being quicker to write out
I’m with Emperor on this one. A lot of Christians don’t like seeing the X in there. We’re not partial to having our deity abbreviated.
Absolutely right, Eric. The idea that it carries no connotations is ridiculous.
I have known people who used it specifically because it offended their atheist sensibilities to type out the word “Christ” in “Christianity.” No, that’s not everyone but it’s quite often used in a derogatory fashion.
I made the right reference used the wrong wording. It wouldn’t be disrespectful so much as ignorant. Not putting the Christ in Christianity is basically talking about something we all know as Christianity but treating it as not worth to say the whole thing. So actually in a way it is disrespectful. Oh and the reference I was going for was taking the a from an atheist makes him into something he is not. Taking Christ from Christianity makes it something it is not, but still references the original religion.
Ummmmmm, FYI, The Crusades were done by Catholics, not christians. Yes most everybody puts Christians all in one catogory with the catholics, but there is a huge difference. The fact that we use the same religiouse book (sort of) dose not matter.
They were the only Christians around at the time…
And how dose the fact that you base your beliefs on the exact same doctrine “Not matter?”
“The fact that we use the same religiouse [sic] book (sort of) dose [sic] not matter.” You mean, that Catholic document voted into canon by a council of bishops called the Bible? Have fun reading the letter to Barnabas with its multi-anal rabbits if you’re so anti-Catholic. Oh, and Catholic means “universal,” as in the Universal Christian Church. Are you saying is that there were no Christians until a Catholic monk decided to break from the church 1500 years after Christ? Oh wait, you must be claiming you don’t believe in Catholic (as opposed to Nestorian, Arian, Montanist) doctrines like the trinity and the virgin birth?
Read your history. You forget about the Copts and the Orthodox Christians who were busy holding off the muslim invasions of eastern europe at the same time.
Yeah, but those sects of Christianity haven’t led to any subsequent religions. Nearly all Christian faiths outside Ethiopia, Greece, and Russia are descended from Protestantism by way of Catholicism.
Wait — You do not consider Catholics to be Christians?
Christianity is the umbrella term. Catholics are definitely Christians and were certainly Christians at the time of the crusades (~1100 AD). I think most people put Catholics into the same category of Christians, which is correct — not the other way around, like you say. Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and early forms of Christianity (not under the purview of the Roman Empire) are still correctly lumped under the category of “Christian.” Maybe I’m missing something, and I’m not trying to be a jerk. I just wanted to clarify that.
Maybe expecting you to know a particle of the history you claim is too much to ask.
The schism you make so much of, with Martin Luther rejecting the Diet of Worms and essentially creating the distinction between Catholic and Protestant, happened AFTER the Crusades. “Christians” don’t get to duck responsibility by foisting it off on the “Catholics” because at the time there was no such distinction.
Perhaps they can use it to dodge responsibility for The Inquisition? That would make them responsible for only about half as much torture and suffering
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
boom. gotcha.
we have such tools at our disposal as the element of suprise,
So, there were no Christians until Martin Luther initiated the Protestant Reformation? In fact, Christianity is a religion that’s younger than Islam by about 800 years?
the nicean (sp?) council established which books to incorporate into the christian bible (ca 325) and christianity started with the prostilytizing (sp?) of the 70 disciples. granted, they were mostly jews, but they were seen as a seperate sect, not part of main stream judaism. christianity started being viewed as a seperate faith after the deaths of the original apostles.
link 1: {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed}
link 2: {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity}
Yes, but I was responding to the claim that Catholics aren’t Christians; by implication, there were no Christians until a non-Catholic Christian church came about. Good research though.
goes back to when i was a kid and so many of the mainline xian churches were claiming catholics weren’t xian… didn’t get their logic then and don’t now…. i knew you were tossing that in there to jab the non-thinker, but figured i’d toss some factoids in to heat the water a bit
and i always give sources when i can, stops some of the trolls from going on tirades about how they get asked for sources & cites yet are never given any. if i’m going to argue with a troll, i want it to be over something constructive, interesting, or at least new
looking at this comment from the outside leaves me baffled! differences in doctrine doesn’t determine the root of your faith does it? isn’t everyone who follows your christ for ’salvation’ a christian be default? or how do you determine who is a christian and who isn’t if not by belief in your christ? and if catholics aren’t christians, why do so many protestant churches have the same dogma all the way down until they hit on the pope? they even appear to toe the line politically?
not slamming anyone here, just totally confused by what appears to be broken logic
Um, The Mulism who commit suicide bombings are breaking the laws of Islam. Just as how the Christians who bomb abortion clincis are breaking the 10 commandments.
Every religion has it’s crazies. I’ve my fair share of radical Jews (some in my own family), radicalism is not confined to one religion, and they are all guilty of perpatuating hate.
Mulism? (^_^)
I think that describes most religions, if you mean being about as willing to listen to reasoned opinion as your average mule. Hee-haw!
When was the last time a Christian bombed abortion clinics? Just because Christians are against abortion dose not mean that they get violent about it. And I do notice that it is Islamic religiouse leaders who are encouraging people to blow themselves up. I ahve never even heard of Christians doing this.
“Just because Christians are against abortion dose not mean that they get violent about it”
Sadly, no.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
Radical Christians can be just as violent as Radical Muslims.
Actually it’s surprisingly common (Not suicide bombings, but bombings nonetheless)… The majority of Christians abhor it but there is a very devout minority who think that they are doing “God’s Work” in killing a doctor to save fetuses.
Why kill the doctor? They’re just doing their job. Why not kill the mother. If the fetus is going to die anyway, let it go down with the ship.
Nice one, Albert
You want Cristian bombing? Look up Northern Island in the past 100 years
Not done in the name of Christianity.
WTF? It is indeed done in the name of Christianity, since each side is convinced the other is going to hell!
I recall it in the 90s. And I’m pretty sure abortion doctors have been murdered even more recently than that (as in, within the last few years)
Yes, they DO get VERY violent.
Have a link.
no, actually, mainstream islamic leaders don’t encourage the booms and bangs. you have circular logic, my friend.
Actually, some translations of the Ten Commandments say that “Thou shalt not kill another Jew” and there are tons of lines in both the Bible and Quran where the god is ordering X Y or Z group put to death. Ie. Death penalty for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), and cussing out your parents (Leviticus 20:9).
And fully agreed that every religion has whackjobs who go too far.
Religitards.
The original Hebrew text of the ten commandments is “thou shall not murder”. Period. It does say it’s ok to kill this group or that one.
Okay, stop being reasonable! You’re going to ruin someone’s prejudiced view of Judaism!
that’s the only comment I’ve seen yet that’s absolutely true, when seen in any religious light.
“I can’t think of any christian, hindu, jew, or buddist who would kill for their religion.”
What about those Christian fundamentalists who blow up Planned Parenthood centers and clinics who offer abortions?
Or the KKK, who are self-described as a fundamentalist Christian organization?
Just because you hear about them less often in the news doesn’t mean they aren’t there. It’s not the religion that makes people violent; it’s the person’s mental instability. Religion just gives some nutters justification – like those people that say Satan/the aliens/Barney the Dinosaur told them to kill people.
Wait wait wait, we all know that Barney the Dinosaur has been quotes several times telling people to kill.
*Quoted*…
agreed. he is the Charles Manson of hallucinations.
So when was the last Planned Parenthood/abortion clinic bombing?
January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota. Okay, that’s not a bombing.
December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd’s clinic in Albuquerque. Wait, wait, no, that was arson.
September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women’s Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinc. Okay, that one wasn’t even really an abortion clinic, I obviously need to dig deeper here…
June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages. Ah, there we go, there’s your answer.
Hmm, I had only heard of a couple of those. Okay, so let’s be generous and assume there’s one a year, with a death maybe every ten years. (The last death I can think of was as a result of the Sandy Springs bombing, and that was well over a decade ago.)
Now, in the same time frame, how many religiously-, ethically-, and/or politically-motivated Muslim suicide bombings occurred? (For bonus points, exclude Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan.)
Just because one group is more evil than the other does not mean that the lesser is good ^_^
nicely stated Amadeus.
cheers to the name as well (assuming it’s a mozart reference)
In the united states (given thats the only location covered in examples above)? One, assuming you’ll count plane hijackings as bombings- or 3 if you count them as separate incidences.
You forget, years earlier another attempt was made on the world trade centers. The vans in the basement. Which Osama took credit for.
Interesting note: the ***holes who were responsible for that are now rotting in American jails. What’s Bin Laden doing?
If I knew, do you think you would necessarily have to ask that question? I would have called the US embassy in Canada and told them. Then this conversation would look redundant.
Well those are only the attacks on buildings. The harassment of the employees, the threats, etc is pretty much ongoing.
And just because Muslims do it more often doesn’t exempt Xity from the “deadly cult” label.
Wow, three people getting very defensive. I was just interested in making a comparison.
There’s a family planning clinic near my house that always has one lone old man picketing it. (Sitting in a lawnchair outside, actually) There are more than one old guy that take part. Here’s the funny thing for me: they carry different signs, all of them in bad repair. Letters are missing, and it’s impossible to read some of them. These guys are here rain or shine, so the question I have to ask is: if this topic is so important to you that you’ll brave bad weather to make your point, why isn’t it important enough to you that you’ll repair your sign, or make a new one?!?
Not everyone has the resources of a multi-million dollar business at their disposal, nor the talents of their Pro Bowl-friends to help with signmaking.
Or ninjas.
or wal-mart, sharpies, some poster board and a piece of wood.. total cost: <$20
Throw in a dictionary to spell words right. Misspelled words on your sign are the downfall of even the most dedicated protester.
Wall Fly said it. My guess is these guys are being paid by a forced pregnancy group to sit here, and they don’t really care enough to get a $1.39 Sharpie and color in the letters that fell off their cardboard sign.
Er, is “We’re less violent than Muslim extremists” really your idea of a high moral standard?
between 1970 and the mid ’90s sectarian violence between 2 flavours of Christianity, led to the deaths of more than 3000 people in Northern Ireland, Great Britain, and other countries in continental Europe.
question- when the laws weren’t enforced as well as they are here, or people are left on their own in the face of hatred and zealots, what tends to happen? more bombings/killings/zealotry.
““I can’t think of any christian, hindu, jew, or buddist who would kill for their religion.”
What about those Christian fundamentalists who blow up Planned Parenthood centers and clinics who offer abortions?
Or the KKK, who are self-described as a fundamentalist Christian organization?”
In this instance the kkk are using a religion to justify their notions, not killing for their religion. I don’t think it appropriate to use this group as it is denounced by everyone including the religion which they claim to be an organization of.
His response still stands true, as you did not mention a killing based on the stated religions.
Though you are right, religious killings happen all the time, for every religion, they are just not as well broadcasted.
News today out of Ireland that a group of Protestants grabbed clubs, went into the Catholic part of town, and beat to death a 49 year old Roman Catholic man for the crime of being Catholic.
Damn Catholics and their hokey religions and ancient weapons. They must be stopped!!!
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Honestly though, that’s sick. I am not Catholic, don’t agree with them, and have some serious issues with their creed and doctrine, but no one deserves that.
See now that response would have been more appropriate. Thanks PortlandMark.
You do have a point… I was thinking of that particular group’s rhetoric (they claim to be doing “God’s work”) more than their actual motivation. I blame it on being half-awake and on allergy medication at the time.
Anyway, the anti-abortion bombings are entirely religion-based, and often condoned/supported by religious groups. Therefore, that part of my post is still appropriate.
Hindus have killed for their “religion” (loaded term in respect to Hinduism) before. See the independence of India.
There have been more than enough cases of Christian violence stated.
The current Israeli PM would gladly kill a Muslim.
I don’t know of any Buddhists that have killed in the name of Buddhism, but it’s not normally classified as a religion, anyway.
As a jew, let me tell you, we’ve done some fucked up stuff.
And as a student of the east, let me tell you, they’ve done some fucked up stuff.
We’ve all fucked up at one point or another, no one is without blood on their hands.
Even those damned Buddhists, who are lighting themselves on fire!
>.>
Well, that’s another matter. But it is true, even the teachings of Buddah have been perverted into weapons of cruelty (ancient china for the most part.)
All religions have blood on their hands. Each of the three big religions had at least one period in history in which they have killed thousands or millions because God told them to do so.
/hug
agreed. religions should stop comparing “we’re SOOOO much less evil than the other guys!!” because really, it depends on how the laws are enforced, because the people here stating that christians have less bombings and killings going on than Muslims, need to think about the crusades, and how it turns out when you CAN get away with that stuff.
Well, Sri Lanka = hindus and buddhists
Europe = colonial history (millions of deaths) and two world wars. And we in the west certainly make sure to arm the world.
What about fundamentalist Christians who bomb abortion clinics in the US? They also apparently create “hit lists” of doctors whom they plan to kill. That is scary too.
They’re no scary? Seriously? Because there’s a story in the news right now of a several people who murdered a young girl because of their religion. And another of a family attempting to murder their cancer stricken son because of their religion. The mother of the dead girl was described as a ‘devout Christian.’
Does the name Paul Hill ring a bell?
No it doesn’t. Tell us more?
I know of a Joe Hill – writes some damn fine horror novels.
I thought Joe Hill was a slain labor leader?
Joe Hill was a famous leader of the IWW, but Joe Hill is also the pen name of Joseph Hillstrom King, Stephen King’s son.
man, you are stupid.
what about all those people that say “god told me too?”
what about abortion clinic bombers like eric rudolph?
what about the idiots that deny their kids health care and rely on prayer to treat diabetes instead? and thats just scratching the surface of christian fanaticism.
you need to read some history of india. you need to read some middle eastern history as well. you need to read some asian history too. have you ever read a newspaper in your life? you can start there first and then hit the history books.
maybe you just need to read something period and start somewhere.
Ever heard of a fellow named Tim McVeigh? Or perhaps Aaron Snyder, tried to assassinate the Colorado governor, with an entry in his day planner for that day with the words “I rule this country for Jesus Christ”? Or how about Mark David Uhl, arrested for manufacturing explosives to be used against another Christian sect? Or Dayton Lee Calaway, a 19 year old terrorist who tried to ignite a bomb in a Burleson, TX church?
Please educate yourself before you make such stupid statements.
Yeah, McVeigh is one they’d rather forget.
He was trained by radical muslims.
Okay, I finally get it. You really are just trolling. You can’t possibly be that wrong every time you post.
He was, in fact, trained by the US Army.
He was trained to be a soldier there, but where did he get his radical thinking? Was he a member of the KKK or a white supremacist group or something? I’m being sincere here, I’ve really never heard.
I think it’s what is professionally known as “batsh*t crazy”.
Froo, I really don’t want to sound like I’m attacking anything or anybody that you like, but I’m afraid I’m about to.
First, the good stuff: he served honorably in Desert Storm, and was decorated with the Bronze Star, and received an honorable discharge. He was angry that women and children had been killed by the government at Waco, over what had started as an ATF search for illegal weapons. He was a huge fan of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Now, the rest.
McVeigh was a member of the Michigan Militia movement. He started out as a Republican, but claimed later in life that he was more of a Libertarian. He left the NRA because they were too liberal for him. He spent time trying to convince people at gun shows to kill the FBI sniper that shot the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge, Janet Reno, and the judge that was involved in the Waco fiasco. He hated taxation and gun control. The bombing of the Murrah Building was an idea he got from reading “The Turner Diaries”, wherein a terrorist attack causes the US government to take away everyone’s guns. In the novel, this leads to a rebellion by all right thinking Christian White folk, and the blacks, Mexicans, Asians, Jews, and race traitors are all put to death; New York City and Israel are nuked. A plane carrying a nuke is flown into the Pentagon. In short, McVeigh hoped to trigger the Second American Revolution.
McVeigh, in short, is the perfect example of the kind of person described in the recent Homeland Security report that got some segments of The Right so upset a few months back.
I may have missed a couple points there, but those were the highlights.
I don’t like Tim McVeigh, I think he’s a nut. I just hadn’t heard where he got his views from. I can see that he is so far right wing that he’s almost left wing again, along the same lines as Hitler (sorry Godwin).
Yeah, I’m sorry if I implied you would like him, I certainly know you better than that.
I think, however, that he’s a pretty good example of a certain, growing movement in the country right now, as evidenced by the DHS report requested and authorized by the Bush administration and released recently.
None of those attack an entire country or way of life they way radical muslims want to destroy western civilization. They are just random nut jobs who are denounced by mainstream Christian organizations.
Actually, troll, they’re attacking American citizens and their way of life. They’re trying to take away rights, kill innocent people for looking/believing differently, and they basically want to destroy the foundation of the US as we know it.
Also, there are other serious terrorist groups out there that ARE Christian.
I respectfully disagree with you in a strong way. Would you consider hanging a person not violent? As christian members of the KKK did in the name of Christ. To perpetuate segregation , justifying it with the Bible. How about hiding in the bushes and shooting a doctor through his window at home, killing him? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/200834.stm Please are you really going to believe that lie. Lie to yourself not others. Do just a little research that opinion is really. Completly wrong
Try the ones that kill physicians and workers at women’s health clinics.
Tell that to those already murdered in the name of Christ.
Sweet Jesus you’re in denial if you think they’re aren’t legions of Fundies who would gladly kill for their religion.
It’s humanity. It’s a murderous nature. Christianity, as well as Islam as well as the laws of the country (the closest fixed moral standards for Atheists) tell everyone to not kill, yet every religion is guilty of killing for or against their belief.
The reason the law says not to kill is because… well… there are people who kill, duh *shrugs* Law is created to curb the bad side of human nature, to help the world live more at peace.
Bwa-ha-ha, not counting a few abortion providers and receptionists and security volunteers, you mean!
Have you never heard of the inquisition? the crusades? Witch trials? There is more blood ont he hands of the christian church than on any other 3 religions combined. Add in sexual molestaion by clergy, and a pope that claims condems spread AIDS and it becomes obvious that Christianity is the most dangerous cancer to ever infect society.
i can’t disagree that some people claim to be Christians that are not. but i can say that any Christian who does that is a big liar about their faith
I’m not letting this almost 1200 post thread die. LOL Anyway, NObama makes a good point. Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn’t mean that you really are. George W. Bush calls himself a Christian, but I think he makes a really lousy one. Ironically enough, the best example of this I’ve seen is the Family Guy episode where Peter meets Jesus and takes him to see Bush. That was a fine fine moment in television there.
But anyway, calling yourself a Christian and actually being one are two different things.
Sake. You do realise that that video has been edited and subtitled for humour and is a joke i.e. not real.
ac – that film isn’t a joke, we really do have people that twisted over here, and as society changes the more twisted they get, and the more of them crawl out of the woodwork.
Yeah but Anniee seems to honestly think that that is genuinely from a Palestinian TV show…
but anniee has some screws not just loose, but outright missing
she’s as twisted as the woman in this film.
OH REALLY? Is that so, you nasty b*tch?
Well, first of all you’ve never met me and have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Second of all, take some Midol because you’re obviously about to be on the rag and can’t handle your hormones. Either that or you’re off your meds again.
AC – yes, I’ve seen entire episodes of that show – it IS a children’s show, and it is filmed live before a group of very young boys. Are you retarded or did you miss all this? Do your dam* research before sounding even dumber than you already do.
Alright, no need to resort to petty insults.
Everyone remember this is a humour site.
Now we get to watch the over-zealous religious right trash the caption. *sigh*
It’s the fault of the overzealous antagonistic-towards-Christianity left – you’ve radicalized them with your constant hatred and attacks. They feel they have to fight now.
You do know how it happens that people get radicalized, right? I’m sure you’re familiar with how it’s the US’ fault that half of Islam is radicalized now, so this concept shouldn’t be too difficult for you to grasp.
Yeesh first I was thinking Lamictal but now I’m thinking Haldol.
Moron b*tch.
Aaaand it’s time to lock up the sharps.
@pittypat and don’t forget the custom jacket with all the buckles and extra long sleeves to keep her hands warm
….. Anniee….. you are so morally upright, i can hardly stand it. it’s going to make me… WRECK MY PANTS LIKE THE INCREDIBLE HULK!
Mee-OW!
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Odd how often the radical “Christians” seem to forget that.
Pick n choose. Very common.
Love thy neighbour as thyself… as long as they believe the same things…
Love your child, as long as he’s not gay.
lol so true…….
Best comment so far, Sarah, that just about sums it up!
and look just like you too
PM, because we don’t believe in Anniee’s version of God, we don’t get to judge how well she follows the written teachings of said God. Despite the fact that it’s plain to anyone that Anniee is very angry, will not forgive, doesn’t seek to understand, hates the sinner more than the sin, takes spiritual pride in her faith, and essentially attempts to usurp the place of God by continually judging God’s creation, and especially His other children.
But, you know, she doesn’t have to listen to us; what do we know? We’re bad evil heathens who are going to burn in Hell for all eternity.
hehe, worse, were bad heathens who like screwing with weaker minds then our own. We’re bullies.
>:)
“than”
Sorry, it was bugging me. Good point, otherwise!!
grammar fixing fail: ‘we’re’ not were – thirty lashes for you!
i don’t know about you seth, but i plan on spending my after life in valhalla: fighting and dying each day only to be reserected at night to feast and party. and my dogs will be there because odin never said animals don’t have souls….
besides if she’s what’s waiting in heaven, ain’t no way in all of holy h3ll i want to be there even if i were an xian sheeple
I seriously doubt she’ll pass muster. Peter will take one look at Anniee and say you aren’t even good enough for hell!
They’d be afraid she’d try to take over Hell, and fail miserably, causing it to freeze over in the process.
I’ll be joining you. Until Ragnarok, that is.
That’s my kind of heaven.
HELLL YES!
i love Ragnarok and Nordic references in Christian debates, they make such a good statement.
ODIN WATCHESSSS
Norse mythology is particularly fantastic because the Nords never took their gods that seriously. Which is, honestly, how it should be today.
yeah, gotta love the Vikings
)
i mean, i’m sure it was comforting for them to have a god, especially when they/someone they love was in danger of dying, but they didn’t need to live their entire lives according to outdated things. The gods may have been hot-blooded and never really preached the peace message Christianity did, i’d massively prefer the more directly violent Norse gods rather than absolute believers in Christianity- at least they could be honest and solve their problems, whilst the Bible causes massive debate and confusion. (ps- sorry for the lack of caps, i’m at my school right now and this computer’s shift button isn’t working correctly- did what i could for caps, sorry
Nords? ROFL!
@HairySexyTroll
I’m guessing you got the reference?
@Tyler
The vikings were even pretty progressive, what with the men leading during war and women leading in peacetime.
“They didn’t need to live their lives according to outdated things.” Exactly right; they lived for the moment, whether that be huddled around a fire to survive the winter and telling wild stories, out fishing and hunting, or on the battlefield.
amen portlandmark
So your giving others responsibility for your own actions? And you wonder why the left calls you sheep
I think the definition of religion is “giving others responsibility for your own actions,” whether it be a preacher, God, a cult leader, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I’m old enough to remember when “The devil made me do it!” was a joking excuse for idiotic behavior. Now it’s “God made me do it!”
So Xtian.
It is important to Christians to have the Christ in Christian, you know, considering their faith is based around Him and all.
Mine was in reference to Aimmee’s “moron Bitch” response to Pittypat’s post. It was so typical of her type of xtian practice. Kinda got lost in all the nestings.
Understood, but what you are doing, which you repeated is like me changing Allah to s-h. S representing the part of the name most important to Islam. I understand that if you are not a Christian it does not mean anything to you, but it is important to Christians. That’s all, no hard feelings I hope.
Yeah, we don’t worship the X-men. We worship Christ, which I always wonder how the X ended up as a replacement for that anyway.
It’s shorthand for “ichthos” which is the fish symbol in Greek. According to what I’ve heard, early Christians were mostly in hiding and had to keep quiet about what they were. They had little secret signs they would use to identify each other, and the fish was one. If you suspected another Christian, you would draw the little Ichthos fish in the dust and wait for the countersign.
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The Greek for the Ichthos, IIRC, is an X, making the shorthand for Christian “X”. You’ll have to forgive me, it’s been a while since I studied Greek
Wow, Froo. I knew about the secret signs and the fish, but I always though the “X” designation was a bit of a slam from non-Christians, where “X” is an unknown, the way it is used in high school algebra. You’re full of info!
I’m trying to find cites for you on the “X” part of it, but I can’t seem to find any. I’ll keep looking. I think it partly developed because the Greek letters for Ichthus were ΙΧΘΥΣ and sometimes got abbreviated to just the “X”. I’ve also heard that the little fishy symbol would sometimes be abbreviated to just the tail, making it more of an “X” than a fish.
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Yes, I’m full of info, but as Hubby says, most of it is useless unless I want to be on Jeopardy
FTR, my Neo-Con parents considered it a slam, and would never let us abbreviate the word Christian. After hearing those stories and doing a little research, I never thought it was a slam.
I learned something today! Despite my best efforts otherwise, I learned something today!
Thanks for taking the time to find it out for us. Well also for letting us know. The “X” is considered bad not because what it represents but what it replaces. You are taking Christ out of a word. Not a big deal to me but according to Christianity it matters, so I try and defend it when I can.
I’m very much not a Christian, but I agree with you. There’s no reason to go disrespecting someone’s religion just because it doesn’t work for me.
@ Portland, Thank you. Mutual respect is always a good notion, regardless of upbringing, and our religious or non-religious views.
I’ve got no decent citations, unless you’ll all accept me having heard it independantly of froofrou.
Aha, I always thought it was X like criss-cross. The more you know! *star goes across screen*
oh. i thought it had something to do with the X being a crossed pair of lines, like the cross the christian savior died for them on, could that be part of it too?
no, actually the rest of the world made the x thing cause they wanted the name Christ out of words. believe me i would know as a christian myself.
Gotcha. Nope…no offense at all. Good point that I’ll try to remember….although it’s so much easier to type for the keyboard challenged like meself.
Thanks.
Annnnnnd, did you see what I was replying to you boehead turd? GET REAL. I make no apology for that; only an apology that I couldn’t think of anything worse at that moment.
Also, if the name fits…
That should read “bonehead.” And brak, can we get it straight here that my name does not have any m’s in it – are you dyslexic or stupid? You’ve got the vowels reversed with the consonants, “m”s instead of “n”s and there are two “e”s at the end. It is not a homophone of “AMY” but of “ANNIE”. Jeesh, how annoying. And when someone responds to a comment of mine by saying merely, “well I was thinking X drug, but now I’m thinking it’s X heavy drug” she gets called what she gets called.
Froo, for the record I am NOT drinking so don’t start that nonsense. Fittyfat was being a moron b*tch and she got called on it, simple as that.
You might have more credibility if you did blame it on the drinking instead of just being a soulless hypocritical harpy, but it’s your reputation, so have at it.
You’re the hypocrite for pretending that I wasn’t responding to the absolute NASTIEST kind of comment there is, and thus my reply wasn’t even on the level or calibre of pittyfart’s – methinks you protest too much about how righteous you are and how evil I am. Much too much.
Where have I ever placed myself higher than you in the morality spectrum? You’re constantly telling me what a bad Christian I am, not the other way around. Put down the bottle, darling. Your brain cells are starting to get lonely.
Couldn’t resist, huh? Well I’m beginning to realize that the real problem here is that you actually DO need medication and you ain’t getting it. The constant ups and downs, the erratic wild swings, the short term memory failure – honey, seek help.
When oh, when, will it dawn on you that I’m not in the slightest embarrassed about drinking and have no problem saying “Yep, that post was booze-fueled.” This one isn’t. I just got home from work my little undermedicated friend; sorry but no go. When I’m drinking, I’ll tell YOU, not the other way around.
Two of you. Separate corners and I know it is corny and cliche, and coming from an agnostic to boot, but would you think about what Jesus would do for a second?
Froo, Anniee was feeling attacked, and stating her reasons for feeling that way. Pittypat was being a jerk, implying that her legitimate (if slightly overblown, IMHO, but I’m not a Christian so what would I know) hurt feelings were mental illness of some sort.
The thing is, KaBoom is no kind of regular and Anniee has put in her time here. I’m not quite sure what she is, but she’s too damn earnest to be a troll. Be nicer to her and stick up for her once in a while, please?
Anniee, seriously, I like you, I think you are smart and I respect you. Jesus taught love and acceptance, and not to judge. That is easy to do sometimes, and really, really hard other times. But then if it were always easy, He wouldn’t have had to remind people how important it was. I get it wrong more than I get it right myself.
Seth, I’ve put in my time trying to be nice to Anniee in the past. All it gets me is attacked, except for one time very recently where she was actually responding in kind. We had a really good exchange, and I thought that her days of placing herself on a pedestal above me in terms of Christianity and politics were over, and we could be friends. I’m willing to try again, but as far as her being nasty to me, I’ll not tolerate it, nor will I tolerate it if she (or anyone else) is being nasty to a friend.
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But like I said, I respect the hell out of you, Seth, and I will give it another shot.
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Anniee, shall we get long?
Sadly, froo, crickets again.. so much for extending the hand of reason.
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Anniee, what say ye?
As I said in another post, I’m keyboard challenged, so please accept my apologies for that. Dyslexic…..stupid? Maybe a bit of both. I’ll be more careful. In the meantime, read the part of Christian ethic that talks about tolerance.
) teaching to do so. Why is it that so many of you seem so ANGRY all the time?
On the other hand, I have not yet called anyone here a moron bitch or boehead turd (maybe you’re a little keyboard challenged too?) . My point was that it is NOT a part of Christian (thanks Eric
Reading all of Eric’s posts have given me pause to stop and give my views a little more thought in a number of ways. Maybe I’ve been too inflexible in my beliefs-or lack thereof. In any case, I am open to other ideas, a little more so now. That’s what being agnostic is about, eh?
On the other hand, your posts are typical of the same kind of nasty, crabby, self righteous, holier than thou, preach-one-thing-and-do-another folks who turned me against religion in the first place. I can see your god shaking his head and rolling his eyes every time you post with such mean intent. Oh…..and why drink at ALL? Nasty habit. Nothing to be proud of.
I will endeavor in the future to spell your name correctly if you promise not to call me names.
And thanks again, Eric.
Actually, going around calling people moron bitches is not very Christian of her. You have a very bigoted view of Christians, my friend.
I could easily be wrong, but I think he was pointedly using Xtian for that reason. I.e. he was refusing to call that kind of behavior Christian, because he didn’t want to tar the term.
Ah, well, if that’s the case, then I’m sorry. I just really hate it when people think that people like Anniee are representative of the entire Christian community.
That’s one of the reasons I think popularity has almost always been a very bad thing for Christianity. If professing Christianity is seen as a way to gain power/influence, or gain materially… IMO, “Power corrupts” isn’t quite as accurate as “Power attracts the corruptible.”
And the corruptible are, well… corruptible. They also tend to want and get a lot more attention than the ones who try to quietly do good.
And thus we come to the truly crippling part of the church. The church should NOT be powerful, because power DOES attract corruption. And when the church worships a man of no corruption, of no sin, and of pure love, corruption completely destroys the message. The church becomes more powerful on earth, but the message they are supposed to be delivering is now impotent. Hypocrisy and corruption have ravaged a perfectly good religion.
Outstanding post. This is exactly what I have thought all along. The organization ALWAYS, at some point in it’s evolution, become more important than the message and it’s focus then becomes nothing more than the accumulation and retention of power. At that point the message become superfluous to money and influence and is merely a tool to get more.
Hey folks….this Eric guy is OK!
Wow, I just saw this, but thanks, brak!
BTW, if anyone who has read this thread has not seen Dogma, rent it now. It’s both a hilarious send up of the church along with some extremely relevant commentary on the current state of the religion. It isn’t outright crapping on Christianity, just pointing out areas for improvement. And it’s got Jay & Silent Bob in it.
Excuse me, I’m not going to play the part of your whipping boy and your scapegoat. You do not need to drag me in to every conversation you have as a negative example, you jerk. That’s ridiculous. Stand on your own principles and ideas or STFU.
*I* hate it when people like the woman in the video become thought of as representative of Christianity in general. Did you ever think of saying THAT instead? No, of course you didn’t. Ass.
Check the nesting, he was responding to what you said previously, not “dragging you into a conversation” where you weren’t before.
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Also, he did say what you’re asking him to say: {http://punditkitchen.com/2009/05/24/political-pictures-becky-fisher-word-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-167738}
{http://punditkitchen.com/2009/05/24/political-pictures-becky-fisher-word-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-167302}
I used YOU as an example because many things you’ve said in these comments have been very much what I’m talking about. However, when you’re right, you’re right. The Jesus Camp woman is definitely NOT what I want ANYONE to think Christians are normally like.
But again, you have come off as a very snooty Christian looking down your nose at nonbelievers and that makes me just as ill as atheists who make jokes about people of faith as being ridiculous. I know I’ve gotten my panties in a wad (they’re strictly for comfort, people, don’t judge me) over many of the religious things said here, but I have also tried to make clear my overall acceptance of people of all faiths or lack thereof. You haven’t done that. That’s why I mentioned you. Ass.
Eric, she looks down her nose at people she considers to be “less Christian” than she as well.
Which makes Jesus go *facepalm*
Amazingly-horribly-bad-taste jokes, sorry if they’re offensive:
1) When Jesus facepalms, is the result something akin to playing peekaboo?
2) WWJFP? (Actually, I think I like that one so much that I’ll have to use it to replace WWJB? on my car.)
I’m gonna have to call BS on this one. I almost NEVER talk about Christianity and certainly this might be only the second time I’ve even mentioned the scriptures on this entire board, ok? The only time **I** got bent out of shape prior was when Fister decided to label ALL Christians (but especially me) as mentally ill schizos psychos just for believing in the fairy God that we do. I didn’t see you b*tching then, though. So don’t even go there unless you can find a hell of a lot of instances of me even DISCUSSING this issue, because you can’t, Eric. You don’t like me and you want to make me your scapegoat “Well I hate it when people think of ANNIEE” and it’s nonsense. Stop it.
And also: “Let me explain it this way – you are NEVER going to have to wonder if the “kooky Christian” on the news or in the “Jesus Camp” type film is me because it’s never going to be. I don’t proselytize nor go door to door, engage in any strange rituals, or do anything in real life that anyone could consider strange. Now if we start to pursue a general strategy in this country against Christians like was done to the jews in WWII, you might see me on tv being rounded up into a cattle car, but that’s going to be as far as it goes. So find another scapegoat. This ISN’T the droid you’re looking for.
What is your definition of “proselytizing”?
You aren’t mentally ill. In fact, personally, I like you. If I didn’t like you and think you were smart, you wouldn’t have the power to annoy me like you do. I’ll try not to give you socialist cooties if you try to be a tiny bit less judgmental. You probably don’t mean to, but you kinda come across as arrogant. I’m just saying, I’d respect your religion a lot more if I saw it turn you into a nicer person.
Except that I was talking specifically about your attitude right here. Your attitude has been so preachy that even though we share the same religion, I wouldn’t dare defend your comments here, and I’ve been called the thickheaded one on here already.
No, you’re not the kooky nutjob like Jesus Camp lady, I’ll give you that. But you are the common stereotype of the holier than thou Christian.
Eric, this is an isolated conversation and you’re going to have to realize that there’s a difference between putting in my opinion when the subject simply comes up and proselytizing or being holier than thou. I don’t think I’m a better Christian than anyone (who is truly a Christian) – I’d rather, like Paul, call myself the chiefest of sinners. That doesn’t mean that I haven’t studied and wrangled with the scripture enough to speak with some actual authority on the meaning, because I have. That is what you’re seeing. I also generally have a specific purpose in mind when I engage in a topic. I’m not going to add a ton of “IMHO” and “JMO”s when I know something is true.
Seth – thank you, I didn’t realize you felt that way.
Froo – for my purposes I use it to mean that I don’t actively seek converts (though I might if I were in a location where no one had ever had a chance to hear the gospel, unlike the US where everyone has) or preach to non-Christians, except as such time they ask me genuine questions, in which case I answer as honestly and thoroughly as I can. If I feel up to it.
Well, holier-than-thou might not be your intent, but it is how you’re coming off. And I’m not the only one who thinks so. Your reputation on other subjects for being argumentative and insulting admittedly come into play here, so yeah, we’re likely to take what you say wrong no matter what your intention.
That being said, I’ll be the bigger man and say that even though I was responding to things you said above, I probably didn’t need to pick on you. I apologize for that.
Whether or not the sarcasm about using “‘IMHO’ and ‘JMO’s [sic]” was aimed at me, I’ll respond: In matters of opinion, neither you nor I has any business claiming that ours is The Truth. De gustibus non est disputandum. Recognizing one’s own opinion as NOT being The Truth is a strength, not a weakness.
Apologies, but I can’t resist… was “JMO” a Freudian Typo for “Jesus’s & My Opinion”?
“I don’t think I’m a better Christian than anyone (who is truly a Christian)”
:/ that sentence made me a bit uncomfortable.
also, Ari, JMO-Freud joke gave me quite the lulz, thanks for that ;P
Yes, tyler, I figured it would. That’s the way the cookie crumbles.
Stealth panties joke is win. ^_^
Thank you!
Thank you for the feedback. I’m very hesitant to claim any truth to my mindreading skills, and I’m glad that this time I was close to the mark.
Any Vulcan ancestry?
You’re a very angry, hateful person.
so what do you think made the overzealous antagonistic-towards-Christianity left so radicalized…
I’m pretty sure the over-zealous religious right was created first.
In the beginning God created the overzealous religious right, and they were without form and void, and darkness was upon them and they were not so deep.
And god fashioned into the left the rib which he had taken from the right, and thereafter the overzealous right can’t take a ribbing.
lol nice
That’s pretty funny actually.
In the beginning, man created god.
and then she realized she could do better
Ain’t no way to go but up!
BOO-YA!
But they weren’t doing scary things like in Jesus Camp. Not since the crusades or the catholic/protestant counter-burnings for heresy and that was a long time ago.
I think the point is that certain past siner should not be throwing stones.
Or cosiners either. Damn self-righteous geometry teachers…
… they’re always on an ego trig.
Damn Calculating bastards.
It can be hard to differentiate them though, until they say something obtuse.
Ahhh…they’ve always got an angle.
But it’s never an ugly angle, no it’s always acute one.
Let’s try not to go off on a tangent.
Well, and that minor thing about justifying slavery and the genocide of Native Americans via the teaching of more than one Christian Denomination that neither Africans nor Indians had souls. Or the forced conversion of colonized peoples to Christianity at the point of a gun or by kidnap and imprisonment in “schools” and “reservations.” Or the subjugation of half the human race to the whims of the other half simply due to their genitalia – arguing against women having the rights to property, voting, their own children for thousands of years. Or the girls in the 50s and 60s forced into “homes” and having their children taken from them for the “sin” of an out of wedlock pregnancy. Or the “anti-cult deprogramming” through kidnap and torture of people who had the audacity to chose other religions in the 60s, 70s and 80s (still going on actually despite the efforts of the alternative religions and smaller denominations to fight such tactics in court.) Um… Bosnia? The abuse of children by the Catholic and protestant priesthoods in religious schools and parishes. Also, as mentioned already, targeting doctors and clinics that provide abortion or just reproductive services to women and girls. Or the targeting of blacks and civil rights workers in the 50s and 60s in the South. Or hate crimes against homosexuals based on “religious” teachings. Or teaching that condoms make HIV spread faster? ETC.
So, you were saying again?
This all happened in a Jesus camp?
LOL! No, but the argument was made that Christians hadn’t done anything crazy between the Reformation and the Jesus Camp. Merely refuting that assertion.
Oh very acceptable, I was just going for the sarcastic literal approach to your response, just to prevent him from reaming you as he was talking about Jesus camps in particular. I understand that there are the crazies in all groups. I know there are fellow Christians out there that would do some crazy stuff in the name of God.
Heh! Yeah, there are fanatics and power-mongers in every human institution. It’s sad that we can twist something that has the power to be so up-lifting, spirituality, into a force that can cause so much destruction and hurt to people.
Usually when they realize the trouble they have caused, they will cop out and say “God/deity/w/e told me/ It was God/deity/w/e’s will”.
It’s the pendulum effect.
Haha, yeah, it’s always the people who are antagonistic against Christianity who are told to be “attacking” people, isn’t it? I find it amusing.
When I walk down the street Mormons start preaching to me, when I’m at home Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups come knocking on my door to preach to me. And the pamphlets they give me tell me that I deserve to burn in eternal hellfire for not believing in their brand of Christianity.
And people like Fred Phelps and many other bigots tell me that I’m an abomination according to the bible, and that God almighty will force me to eat my children and friends because I’m not straight.
So, every once in a while I go online and I poke some fun on the bible verses that say stuff like that. I make some jokes, point out what I personally think is strange and twisted about Christianity. I post it on my blog and stuff, where people only have to read it if they want to and come there by their own free will. I’ve never bothered anyone in their home, I’ve never held up bigoted signs at funerals, I’ve never accosted people on the street telling them that they deserve torment.
But I’ve still been told several times that I’m the one who is intolerant. That I am the one who is attacking. For writing humor, that no one needs to pay any attention to, on the internet. Yeah, right.
Certain Family Guy quotes come to mind…
Standing ovation! Well said! Elebenty billion internetz for you!
“When I walk down the street Mormons start preaching to me, when I’m at home Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups come knocking on my door to preach to me.”
Yeah, that’s truly obnoxious, I agree. But those are not any part of mainstream or orthodox Christianity.
“And the pamphlets they give me tell me that I deserve to burn in eternal hellfire for not believing in their brand of Christianity.”
These are part of mainstream Christianity, and they are merely trying to WARN you that you WILL burn in hell for not accepting Christ. It’s true, but it’s not something I see fit to go around proclaiming every day because everyone already knows this. There is more to it than that – there is redemption, and hope (but what would redemption and hope be without the knowledge of the lack of them?)
“And people like Fred Phelps and many other bigots tell me that I’m an abomination according to the bible, and that God almighty will force me to eat my children and friends because I’m not straight.”
This is a difficult issue – you can not, first of all, take the Phelps’ seriously – NO ONE in Christianity does. However, there IS sin and there IS redemption. Personally, I have a gay child myself – I don’t find that I can cast out my own child for any reason so it’s all going to have to be in the hands of God, isn’t it? He’s the one who saves or damns anyway – yes he has standards and I may be the arbiter as a Christian, but some things are beyond me. We shall see where it all leads. I’m sorry that these things made you reject God…or did they? Or was it that you already had? I had, when I was younger.
“Yeah, those eebil Moremenses are horrible if they do it! But if I do the exact same thing, I’m being nice.” Uehhhh?
Just curious, have you considered that 1st-century Jews probably felt the same way about you that you feel about Mormons? (Who, I’m told, prefer to be called LDS.)
I prefer LSD myself.
Better living through chemicals!
I find it’s a much better religious experience.
I took LSD and saw God. But you should really make an appointment if you’re gonna do that. I caught God on the crapper and that was really embarrassing. “Hey, can’t you knock first, a-hole?”
Monitor now drenched with coffee. Thanks for the laugh of the day, Eric! A whole new meaning for the Brown Acid.
Deliberately obtuse. Mormonism is a cult of Christianity by definition, not Christianity proper.
This, actually, isn’t true.
starrfade, I’ll offer a line of analysis that might help:
Even if we assume her statement is true, what does it have to do with the subject? I.e. “Why would the exact same behavior be obnoxious if Moremenses do it but nice if Anniee does it?”
That’s why you have to start with the first sentence. Like she says, she’s being deliberately obtuse. She considers them a cult, so as far as she’s concerned that means nothing about them can be good. Therefore, any question will be answered the same way.
It doesn’t matter whether the question is “Why are they eebil?” or “Why are you inherently superior to them?” or even “What definition of ‘cult’ are you using to call them that?” – the answer is “Moremenses are a cult.”
Never mind that first century Jews would have said the exact same thing about Anniee, i.e. that as far as they’re concerned she belongs to an illegitimate cult offshoot of their religion. They would only say that because they, like Moremenses, belong to an inferior religion. (And pretty much everyone else too.)
“These are part of mainstream Christianity, and they are merely trying to WARN you that you WILL burn in hell for not accepting Christ.”
Yes, I get that. I understand their intentions, but I still have a problem with atheists being called “attackers” in the context. Let me give you an example.
I never do this, but I’ve seen some people on the internet write about how