WITCHHUNTS
WITCHHUNTS
Always easier than addressing real issues
(Joe McCarthy)
picture: dunno source, via our lol builder. lol caption: Vikram
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Communism in American government WAS the issue. Despite MSM censorship, McCarthy was essentially correct. If you have the intellectual honesty to be open to a contrarian viewpoint (i.e., the truth), Google “Venona Intercepts”. If Obama wins, Communism has finally got their pawn in the White House.
We have a democracy here and communism has just as much right to use that democratic process as any other political ideology. If the people vote for communism, then anti-democratic cross dressing douche bags like McCarthy have no right to say we can’t. Not that Obama is anything like a communist, or even a socialist. He’s not even left wing, he’s totally centrist.
“[Obama’s] not even left wing, he’s totally centrist.”
o_0
Yup. just because your political viewpoint is so skewed to the right that the mainstream appears left to you, does not make it so. Mainstream America obviously feels different than you do. You can’t use the boogieman of socialism and communism anymore, your ideas have failed so badly the average American will now simply say, “Yeah, socialist, so what? Better socialist than what you guys are preaching, because what you are preaching has failed miserably.”
On this point I will agree with you Seth. Socialism in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, it’s more about how it is implemented. Roosevelt was considered a Socialist and he managed to keep the country going forward. Unfortunately, some of his programs should have been stopped when the country got back on it’s feet.
Ya, temporary fixes should remain temporary but otherwise the flaw with socialism is people not socialism itself.
I am just tired of boogieman rabble rousing. I’m sorry, Socialism hasn’t been sucking my blood for 8 years. That was somebody else. If only we had a way to get them out of office… Wait a minute…
QBQ is totally off base, all McCarthy had was half-truth’s and inuendo…holy shit, he was Rush Linbaugh’s Dad! Having said that, just remember communism is sharing!
*sigh* post-nabbed again… should I say or should I go now, if I say there could be double, if I go there will be trouble…what to do?
I always did enjoy the X-files episode that featured The Great Red Withc
Hunt
McCarthy: You just do what I tell you to do, before you make it into my little red book.
Other guy: What? Im not a communist!
McCarthy: You are, if I say you are.
And by withc… I mean witch… obviously.
Which witch is winch? Which wench is whence?
Well the witch that winches is obviously not a wench, for whence a witch winches, its not a very wench-y affair.
Witch.
WOAAA…holy Harry Potter, batman…I’ll just settle for the wench.
Hey my post magically appeared…right after your X-files Post…what’ going on here…you’re not the cigarette-smoking man are you?
He’s on the gum and patch… At the same time.
Well I did want to be a writer… And I did shoot JF- I mean….
No… not me, not at all.
That’s what she said. In bed…
Kind of like the “State of Emergency” we’ve been under since 9/11 that allows the government to violate my fourth amendment rights.
On the other hand, it was stopping some of his programs that created the environment for the current financial collapse.
I should add that we may be talking about different programs.
Your comments on this thread are right on, Seth. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
AGREED!
Let me clarify a couple of things. Capitalism did not create Freddy and Fannie, nor Social security, or Welfare, nor Golden Parachutes, or a large government. And I don’t blame Democrats/Liberals entirely for it…W has not veto’d a single spending bill in the 8 years he’s been in office. Not only did he lie to the Left, he also lied to those that voted for him. Which is why so many Reps are now calling themselves Conservatives. Like myself.
What has created these problems is trying to infuse Socialist concepts into not only a capitalist, but an AUSTRIAN capitalist design. More importantly, Corporatism has also hurt us. Since we became an industrialized nation we have gotten further and further away from the designs of the Founding Fathers. You can all thank the robber barons for this.
Much of what we have taken for granted as SNAFU should never have existed in the first place. Things like Social Security, the Federal Department of Education, Dept. of Homeland Security, Executive order 56, etc etc that are blatantly unConstitutional and anti capitalist.
We’ve had socialism insterted into our government and daily lives for over 60 years. The fact that it took this long for everything to crumble is absolutley amazing.
Now Seth is correct. Socialism is an open topic for discussion. However, you have to Amend the Constituion to even begin to allow it to take root. Or at least we should. We’ve been ignoring it like crazy for half a century and THAT is the reason why we are where we are.
I leave you with this, Seth. Yes, you may discuss Socialism all you want. You are also openly allowed to discuss White Power and Anti Semitisim. They all carry about the same weight with me. Anti American.
And for those that like to say that the Constitution is dead and no longer applicable in 2008 I offer this…In the Declaration we are given the right to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness…..the Declaration is even older than the constitution…maybe I should come to your house and take one of those three things from you.
The Austrians have been proven dead wrong about economics. The rich loved Friedman because his theories not only excused greed and selfishness, but enshrined it as a virtue. Socialism is not unconstitutional. Not only has it not hurt us, it has kept things from being much, much worse. The countries with the highest reported rate of happiness are all socialist countries. Capitalism did create Golden Parachutes and other excesses, because there are no checks and balances to the accumulation of extreme power under capitalism. Marx was right, capitalism is a tool that allows the rich to accumulate wealth far beyond their actual contributions to society. The more wealth you have, the more control you can exert over the free market, which allows you to accumulate even more wealth. If the free market were really that great, then how come not one single company is organized like a free market internally? Free market ideologues who swallowed their own kool-aid tried that, and it failed miserably. Why is that?
Ok, I’ll try to make this painless,
All powers not expclicitly given to the Fed are, by default, given to the States. Medical Insurance, Dirver’s Licenses, Dental, Vison, car insurance….none of these things are garanteed rights under the Constituion, therefore they become property of each state to regulate.
Socialism (and fascism for that matter: see Bush Administration) depends on a centralized powerful regulating government.
And citing countries in Europe that have less than a 1/3rd of our population (to put this in perspective, there are only 6 million less Black Americans than there are people living in Spain), that have a strong nationality (see Finland-3 million white middle class Finns), and a small land mass as models for us to follow is laughable.
We’re 300 Million plus of people that can’t agree on anything. We’re the most diverse nation on the face of the planet and there is not another like us. We have to create our own rules and laws to deal with our problems, not Germany’s (ans their answer is usually-immigrant eh? Nuts to ya).
Guess what, we have that, it’s called the Constitution. And getting away from it will lead to socialism and eventually communism because only communism can regulate socialism in a country this large.
I hope all of you leftist, marxist idiots look forward to standing in line for toilet paper and prescription drugs.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, I’m done with you
Why? Are you going to his house to take away his liberties?
You make some good points. First, your point that European countries have conditions that make socialism easier and more natural for
them, absolutely true. Second, the risk of socialism becoming communism, debatable, but something to guard against, yes. As for the constitutional argument, I’m afraid that’s been shot down in the name of corporatism. Not that I like it, but there it is.
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If we did move towards something like socialism, I’d prefer it to be on a state or local level. Meaning, I’d prefer a smaller Federal government. And a ‘free market’ of government styles amongst the states. meaning, if socialism were available at the state and local level, I would vote old school state’s rights Republican at the federal level.
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We can’t ignore the problems inherent in socialism, and we can’t blindly do what other countries do, but we shouldn’t dismiss socialism out of hand, either.
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“All powers not expclicitly given to the Fed are, by default, given to the States. Medical Insurance, Dirver’s Licenses, Dental, Vison, car insurance….none of these things are garanteed rights under the Constituion, therefore they become property of each state to regulate. ”
Hmm, that’s ONE … and only one … interpretation. The alternate is that anything not specifically stated as the property of any political body is open to regulation by any such body that steps to the plate.
Republicans always call themselves conservative. Then they legislate how you should live. They drive honkin’ big Cadilacs and drink Krystal while cheating on their wives and their constituency. Excuse me, I meant to say Republican Candidates. The Republican voting block, on the other hand, consists mainly of two sub-groups. People who own large businesses and drive honkin’ big Cadilacs and don’t want to make sure that their employees have adequate health-care or pay, and Extremely hard working, underpaid, under-insured, below average wage earning people who believe a politician that “proclaims” their allegiance to Christ. I generalize greatly but there is an enormous amount of truth to the characterization. The Republican party is made up mostly of people who woould lie, cheat and steal to lead the people who “have faith” or blind trust. They vote repeatedly for the candidate funded by the corporate pirates and then say ‘he’s not really a conservative”.
This is what an actual conservative believes.
Don’t legislate how I live my life and who I can associate with. In other words, stay out of my bedroom and don’t tell my mother who is part of her family!
Don’t spend wastefully nor give ‘my” money to someone who already has more than their fair share. Charity does have a place and it is not in Exxon’s pockets.
Reward the person who works hard and follows the rules with the benefits of a functioning economy and supportive society. Do NOT take their hard earned money to line the pockets of the greedy. Do NOT let them sicken and die destitute in their senior years.
Keep the Church out of your Government with as much vigor as you would keep the Government out of your Church. But be honest, if the religous organization or it’s employees are working for profit they are not “non-profit. They should pay their due.
I prefer to associate with people who live conservatively and vote liberally than with people who live liberally and vote conservatively. Use that scale and measure the lives of John McCain and Barack Obama. I think it is the difference between honesty and deception.
Please double-space between paragraphs. It’s easier on the eyes and helps to prevent tl;dr
okay
I have tried but this comment program likes to hide things like that. It als is hiding this as I am typing it so I often have to type blind.
(it appears that I’m being post-delayed; maybe you’ll get this later tonight)
You could always try the Seth approach of marking blank line breaks with a dash.
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Like this.
Or do like I do and make horribly fragmented posts, you know,
the ones that split apart and only have a solitary word holding an
enitrely huge, run- on sentence together…. like this one!
Well, if you want to use that as a yardstick then all I can say is “nuts to ya”. I’m not aware that either party has a lock on extramarital affairs…in fact, the only ones I can think of that gained national attention are Gary Hart, Bill Clinton, and as of late, John Edwards. On the other side of the coin though you have your Tom Daschle’s and Larry Craig’s who went a bit further than cheating, they stepped outside of their reported sexual orientation. That’s gotta make a gal feel needed.
True conservatism puts power to the states, so you actually have a voice in legislation that may or may not try to enforce morality. Morality should never be legislated. Pursuit of Happiness is a right, and so long as that pursuit does not parlay nor interfere with that same pursuit for others then people should be allowed to do it. This means that homosexuality and gay marriage, while it may offend some, does not do any damage and therefore shouldn’t be hampered by the state. Didn’t see that coming did ya? Furthermore I don’t understand why the state has any business in anyone’s marriage/life relationship, etc whether they be gay or straight.
Now, as to your argument about blind faith and giving money to the rich corporations you’re absolutley correct. But there you aren’t talking about capitalism, you’re talking about corporatism or living in what you might call a corporate republic where every law we pass has something to do with money for a large business, which is where we are at now.
We don’t live in a democracy folks, haven’t since the 50’s, probably longer than that. We live in a nation governed by consumer confidence and made up money (gold standard? who needs that) that is controlled by one of two parties. Both parties have a blind faith following. It’s funny to me how the “progressive” and “enlightened” are just as big a dupes as their “redneck” counterparts when it comes to towing the party line. Just remember, you can’t be President unless you are a Democrat or a Republican, that makes this an elite run Republic.
But back to the point, while corporations shouldn’t benefit from our tax dollars (See Tragedy of the Commons) neither should someone that DOESN’T WORK, and I don’t mean 80 year old grand mothers, or stay at home moms, or the mentally challeneged, etc etc. I mean people that plain just don’t work (and if you think they don’t exist you’re freakin’ nuts-I used to work on their section 8 housing developments-I have stories for days).
It’s supposed to work both ways. The way I see it, here are the three tenets of the Spirit of the Constitution that ring true no matter what year it is:
Stay out of my wallet
Stay off my lawn
Leave my religion out of it
The Founders envisioned a nation of people that could stand on their on, and stand alone without interference from the government. Today, if they all came back from the dead….man, I can’t even imagine how pissed they’d be at how much we depend on the fed to do things for us.
Right now, we have Big Daddy Capitalism instead of a Nanny State. And Big Daddy is a drunken abusive gambler. Want a Job? Ask Daddy. He controls the jobs, and owns the house and everything in it. If you don’t play by his rules, your grounded (no job for you, you get sent to your room without supper.)I imagine our founding father’s would be pissed at how much we depend on Big Daddy Capitalism to do things for us.
Did I not just say this?
Yes, we absolutely are not where we are supposed to be. I concur. However, moving to a socialist mode of governement is not the answer, that’s like fixing a papercut with a sledgehammer. It doesn’t stop the bleeding and breaks the finger.
What is actually needed is to pay attention to the problem areas that the liberals point out (because they’re real good at it-and that’s not a slam, the true gift of the liberal is being aware of the people around them and pointing out difficeiences that conservatives won’t see because for the most part, our mantra is leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone) and then go back and see how we got to that point, then take the appropriate steps, no matter how hard, to correct it.
We need to undo the rape of the Constitution that started back in the industrial revolution. Robber Barons people. Guys like Rockefeller. Do a googel search with “Henry Ford, Prohibition, Rockefeller”….you’ll be amazed.
I know all about the robber barons. I’m a member of the
IWW, fighting those guys was a big part of our history. I’m not sure what you mean by ’socialist mode of government,’ though. It’s not as if there’s some line in the sand: this side capitalism, that side socialism. I don’t know of any socialist countries that have no free market at all.
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Some things cry out for a socialist style solution, some things are best handled by the free market. Which, by the way, requires regulation in order to remain free, because wealth is power, and power lets you accumulate wealth
in unfair and unjust ways. We just need to maintain transparency in all government run programs. The possibility of transparency is one huge difference between government run and private solutions.
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I just want to take the time to welcome you to PK. You seem smart and well educated. We like that here. You’re a little full of yourself but that’s okay, you seem to have the chops to back up the attitude. Just don’t assume you’re the smartest and most politically aware guy on the board, because you’ll be in for a rude shock, some people here actually do know what they are talking about.
On the topic of line in the sand, for me it’s redistro of wealth. I’ve worked with guys, and been the guy, that makes 8 bucks an hour busting hump in all weather conditions working on construction sites (see IPO Bust, telco layoffs 2001). I took a low paying job because it’s the only work I could find because stupidly I drove submarines instead of going to college, hence, no college degree. Without one during that time you couldn’t even get a temp job in corporate America.
I have to tell you, that experience was a real eye opener. I worked with guys that claimed to have back problems that once they hit the state mandated 6 weeks on the job suddenly couldn’t work anymore because of said pain and went and got disability for 6 months. This particular guy could be found asleep at any point in time in the day, hidden away somewhere. How he never got fired I’ll never know.
Then there were guys that worked like crazy for the 8 bucks only to be laid off at the end of the project…and they accepted it as part of life. Most of the crew I worked with took off on Friday as soon as the checks showed up. I consider myself as a bit of a slacker but I was one of the best employees they had and it was proved as I got kept to stay on and go to the next project and they all got laid off.
There is a whole subsection of America that works for crap wages and doesn’t think that they can get ahead and some of those folks say “Screw it, I’m getting mine for nothing” and go about finding ways to scam disability, unemploymentm, etc and not work.
When Obama says that he wants to take from people that make over 250k and give to those “less fortunate” THOSE are the people he wants to give the money too. And they absolutley don’t deserve it. In America, you have the right to be a loser. You have the right to fail. You have the right to not be ambitious. The trade off is that you’re not going to be able to afford a flat screen TV, a PS3, a new car, new kicks, etc. These are not people that live in poverty because they don’t work, they live in poverty because they have $2500 dollars worth of funiture from Aaron’s that they can’t afford. And they deserve to get the wealth spread to them? Screw that noise.
That’s my line in the sand. We cannot wage class warfare, I’ve seen what happens first hand when the rich see less money coming their way, they start cutting employees. I don’t know about all of you, but I’ve never been employed by a homeless man.
And class warfare is the first step in a process to take us to either socialism or facism (AIG, Fanny Mae, another 300 billion bailout coming next week…wtf??!?!?).
For a group of people that swear up and down they love diversity, they can’t stand fiscal diversity. You can be white, but just not wealthy. You can be Black, but not own a small business. They are so damn selective in what’s “Tolerant”, it makes me question how tolerant they really are.
Class warfare, redistro….those are key ingredients of a socialist society in its infancy. So that’s why I say, yes…..he’s a socialist. And by which I mean John McCain.
Kidding…totally Obama.
And thanks for “Hello there”, and yer right, I guess I could tone it down. I’m just used to seeing people go “Red red red”…NO! “Blue Blue Blue” when neither group realizes both parties are the problem and not the solution.
so hello there right back at ya and I’ll try to keep the smugness down to a minimum….hard to do though….I’m Huguenot.
And I am the psychotic misanthrope who babbles. Don’t take me seriously. Ever. Unless that changes. Which it might. I don’t know.
I know what I write isn’t on bumper stickers so it may be kind of hard for you to follow so I can only tell you this:
Keep up or take notes
Excuse you?
Did I stutter?
No but you didn’t make any sense either. Arrogance doesn’t impress me nor does anything you say really matter to me. So your orders only show your insecurity with the pretend authority you think you wield.
So don’t try your nonsense with me. It gets you no where.
@Battlecry: not a good start at keeping down the smugness. Also, the rich are continually waging class warfare against the rest of us. They are doing everything in their power to protect their privilege. They see us only as a source of cheap labor. They pioneered the concept of redistribution of wealth. Look at real wages: for 80% of us, they have remained roughly the same for thirty years. For 20%, they have skyrocketed. THAT is redistribution of wealth. Their greatest victory was getting people like you, who should know better, to defend them.
Wow, glad I showed up late for this. Hate much? Nice generalization about the working class based on one work experience at one company. Makes me wonder why I did go to college only to be stuck with the “eight bucks an hour” job. So those that work hard but BELIEVE they can’t get ahead don’t deserve opportunity since thy have a hard time finding hope?? WOW.
@ Seth — I kind of see it as trying to institute a ruling class or a nolility caste, at the very least. That’s why I bought up feudalism a couple days ago. Some people may want to welcome the corporate overlords, but I think most forget that we officially said goodbye to nobility 230 years ago.
I would make an awesome noble. Give the serfs some trinkets, bed a few damsels… Weekly… Throw a party. Host death matches with free food.
Admit it, you know you want me in charge.
@ DWM — Hmm, requires consideration. Will there be canapes at these parties?
My Two Cents:
Benito Mussolini said fascism should really be called “corporatism”. There’s a guy who would know a thing or two about the subject. People often see “the ‘f’ word” and immediately think ‘totalitarianism’, but they are not one and the same. Hence, when we call the Bush Administration ‘fascists’ we’re closer to the truth than the apologistas want to admit.
Also, since you’ve been in those swank, sprawling gardens of luxury we call Section 8 housing, you’ll understand that the lifestyles of those who inhabit them are not so sweet as to discourage working in order to escape from there. The argument that the possibility of living in crime-infested, underserved public housing discourages people from working is ludicrous.
Leaving sections of the populace to die if they don’t ‘pull their weight’ is the stuff of the lower species. But I should expect such attitudes from those who don’t believe we’ve evolved, but were ‘put here’ by an all knowing all-powerful entity that ‘loves us’ but still watches passively as we slowly destroy each other in his name.
“The policies of failure have failed. We need to make them work again.”
-Kang
The number of assumptions you’ve made about me is staggering. Also, socialism is now considered a “centrist” view? I’m not entirely sure how you come to that conclusion. Please explain.
Political spectrum
Communist->Socialist->Democrat->Republican->Fascist
Democrat… right smack in the middle… no matter how much you all hate it
agreed
Thanks for clearing that up. Nifty graph, BTW. You agree too that socialism is clearly a leftist agenda, which was my original point. Thus, it is absurd to refer to Obama as a centralist. Concerning the American political landscape, only two of those positions (of the 5) are represented in our political parties, unless there’s someone running on the Fascist ticket I haven’t heard of on Fox News. The term centralist would only pertain to the limited spectrum running between democrat and republican. Calling socialism centralist would only come about if you were to extend the American political landscape beyond the confines of reality, which would be a liberal agenda.
As a socialist, let me say, Obama is not a socialist! Not even close.
Is he a communist ?
(jesusfuckingchrist)
*beats Spanky with a copy of Das Kapital*
I guess that means “yes”
That means you’re too dense to pay attention and herb isn’t going to waste the breath to correct you. No, Obama is not a communist. I still have my doubts as to whether he’s a socialist, but that’s neither here nor there. Read a tad more, dear. I promise all of your questions have been answered in some form or fashion in this thread, or others like it.
Thanks froofrou; I owe you one.
I was paying you back for jumping on ck for me earlier
*hugs*
One more time, for the people in the back row:
Obama is *not* a fucking socialist!
I wouldn’t complain if he were, but he’s not. He’s not a Muslim, a Socialist, or a member of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Is he a sock puppet?
Empty suit. Difference. And don’t mess with herb
But would Sean Connery try to play him in a movie regardless, complete with Scottish brogue?
My name. You must click it.
Actually, Fascism is socialism, Nazi=Nationalist Socialist.
Uh huh. And the USSR was a Republic. As is North Korea. Guess what? Dictators give their country’s names that make them sound better.
There are many different kinds of Republics. For example, there’s ours…a Corporate Republic and then there’s the Proletarian Republic, which is the kind that was the USSR.
You’re in front of a computer, look it up
Don’t be flippant. Seth actually knows what the hell he’s talking about.
No he doesn’t, because below he confuses Communal issues like Fire departments and police with a national ideaology like socialism.
Socialism is not just a national ideology. It means democratic control over the means of production, at whatever level. And fire departments produce a service, It could be handled by the free market, but it isn’t, and you still haben’t explained why.
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Nice sparring with you. You’re almost good enough to be interesting.
Actually he doesnt this time. The Nazi Party was the National Socialist Party that wanted to take down the capitalists (who were controlled by the Jews) and bring power back to the people. It was one of the reasons why they were able to rise to power (along with the use of anti-semitism). Unfortunately once they had power they also disbanded worker unions and everything else unless it was the Nazi Party.
None of which negates my point. The Nazi’s calling themselves socialist does not make what they practiced socialism.
Did somebody mention my wang?
The fact that they implemented socialist programs does though. Public works, heavy government control (if not ownership) of companies and the economy were central to Germany under the Nazi party. It didnt last too long as a pure socialist government but it was what they first implemented and still strongly held to through out.
Ummm….democrat and republican are not idealogies, they are parties that represent idealogies, so you’re an idiot right there.
Allow me to enlighten you, oh enlightened one
Communism–Socialism–liberalism–constitutionalism–conservatism–nationalsim–facism
Not shown: You have to draw a line UP from constitutionalism to lead to libertarianism and then a line up from there to anarchy.
This is the model for the democratic/republic governed societies.
Lesson ended.
You could explain it a lot simpler with a two axis graph instead of
all that silly ‘line up here, line over there’ crap. One axis represents the freedom/security dichotomy, the other the tradition/innovation split.
Tell ya what sparky, if you have the time to get the spacing right, you go ahead and do it.
Socialism has always been mainstream! Schools: socialist. Roads: mostly socialist. Fire departments, police, defense: all socialist. Utilities: partly socialist. Face facts: the free market fails. In certain cases, the free market is guaranteed not to maximize the utility function. Specifically, the failure modes include externalities, imbalance of information, and natural monopolies. The free market simply can’t deal with them.
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Ask yourself, why DO we socialize things like the fire department?
Externalities. Your neighbor’s fire protection directly affects you. The free market can not take that into account. Roads and utilities are socialized because of natural monopoly. Try to imagine how a free market in sewers would work. You can’t physically have twelve sewers leading to your house, and you get to purchase from the service you like.
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The thing is, socialist countries do have a free market, and they participate in the world-wide free market as well. Even in socialist counties, the workers do not control the majority of the means of production. There is still an owning class. I’m not saying go communist! I’m just asking that we evaluate the options rationally.
Good points, Seth…not sure if i agree with all of them, but you make sense.
Generally, markets fail when socialism is introduces, and socialism succeeds when markets are introduced. Consider China and Russia. They’re authoritarian governments who figured out if you eliminate corporate taxes, businesses will flock to you in droves.
No. Look at privatization. When factories are privatized, they get better. When utilities are privatized, they get worse. Socialize the things that the free market is guaranteed to fail at.
Reason? Tradition more so than anything else.
since civilization has been around there have always been those whose only job is to protect the citizenry. As fire became more and more a problem, that got added to the “Protection and safety” of society angle.
In smaller towns across America the fire departments are still volunteer as the need for them is not great enough to justify a full time force.
The argument that Police and Fire and other related safety org’s, like poison or animal control, at a local level is a socialist policy has weight, but let’s face it, it’s just common sense. At a local level, like small towns and communites, socialism, facism, etc can all work as long as everyone’s on board.
The reason why police and fire departments are part of the local governement can be answered by one question:
“Who else is gonna do it?”
As usual, when we, as Americans, ask this question, we answer with, “The gov!”. Personally I’d like to see a privatized police force in a decent sized city in America. Just as an experiment. I have no idea how it would work out…it would really depend on how good the screening process was for candidates I guess. Cops are just enforcers of the legislative branch of government. Who’s to say we can’t sub it out….no one’s ever thought about it, and with the police unions in place, it will never happen now.
Fact is, most people do want someone else to take care of problems which may result in a physical confrontation…they don’t like to get hurt…and they’re willing to pay someone else to do it on their behalf…which is why we have cops in the first place.
Privatized police force? .. my guess would be that it’d be a whole lot like Blackwater roaming the streets.
Ya, that would be bad. Their allegiance is to their “boss” not to the community. Not what I want as a citizen.
Private police is very close to private army.
You still are avoiding the question. Why don’t we have a market for police and fire protection? Why is there only one electric company to choose from in any given area? The problem is as I mentioned, failure of the free market system to maximize the utility function in transactions where there are externalities, natural monopolies, or imbalance of information. It isn’t tradition, it is
that we recognize that in certain situation, socialist solutions work best. The question isn’t ‘does socialism work?’ We know it does. The question is “WHEN does socialism work better than other solutions?’
We may be luckier than most where I live, because I have two electric companies to choose from right off the top of my head, and I think we my have 3 or more. Unless you’re talking about The Electric Co, of which there’s only one
But you’re right in that other utilities are really hard to do that way. It’s a function of doing it one way for so long that we’re entrenched to the point where we CAN’T change.
You’re right, you are lucky. And Seth you’re right I didnt’ answer your question about utilities.
Here’s the deal with the electric company in my area. It’s the only one out there. And because of this there is absolutley NO price competition. We are all at the mercy of the lords of AEP’s whimsical price increases.
I have a problem with a monopoly in the area that is a publically traded company that is a UTILITY, with a CEO that has multimega millions of dollars in revenue. I’ve tried to come to terms with it….how to break it apart and diffuse the monopoly…but its physically impossible. We’re talking about a physical grid that is built to be one grid for one company.
My only solution is to make it non profit (allowing for R&D, maintenance, and expansion). It’s a public utility. It’s not a right, but it feels like one should have access to electricty and gas should your house be heated by gas, and it shouldn’t be played with in the stock market.
Almost socialistic….but here’s the problem with giving to the government. They’ll screw it up. They screwed up Fannie, they screwed up Iraq, they’ll screw up walking across the street. Its not just Reps or Dems, its BOTH of them.
I think the only final solution is to go with a man made hydro electric dam/nuclear power plant and just make it state owned with a private contracter to operate and maintain as well as do service calls….keep some price and quality competition going that way.
And I didn’t realize you were asking about comptg police forces in the same area (Call 911 or 811 for emergencies-rates will vary). The reason it doesn’t exist is because that is fiscally nuts. Two police forces in one metro city would annihilate any kind of streamlined sense of community or justice. Not only that, but how would you grade them? Most arrests? Speeding quotas (whoops, already have those)?
Nah, it’s open season for more corruption than there already is. And again, cops and fire and animal control and garbage men etc etc are just common sense for large cities to have, and it’s not socialist at all. In fact its very capitalist. We pay the city to keep us protected from crime, fire, anthrax, and to keep the place clean. It’s what they call the Citizen Contract. The service is NOT free….sure it’s for the common good, but that doesn’t mean Marx had anything to do with it seeing as how the concept predates him by about 2500 years.
And the failure of the market in my neck of the woods for electric is do to physical limitations, not one of ecomonics….unless I’m just missing your point altogether. Totally possible.
Excellent speech ,comrade !
Please only use the names of historical figures when making a non-political point. It raises your credibility if you use a consistent name.
Yeah! (smirk)
So what you are tying to show is that a hostile foreign power was spying on the US? SAY IT ISN’T SO!!!!!
If you are as interested in history as you try to make out you’d know that the problem wasn’t communism per se but the conflict between the USSR and the Western powers. Russian spies: bad. People who’d read Das Kapital and felt that things were a little unfair: not so much
You’d also know that socialists (which is what Obama is) are not the same thing as communists (which is a common point of ignorance amongst those who spew right wing talking points without understanding them)
FFS, Obama is no more a socialist then McCain is a member of the Vienna Boys Choir.
I *wish* he were more socialist, but he’s not. He’s a middle-of-the-road centrist with a few populist platforms. Socialism? Not so much.
Bernie Sanders (I-VT), now *he’s* a socialist.
Please note that socialism had nothing to do with the U.S.S.R. and communism has very little or nothing to do with China or North Korea. Totalitarianism is separate from either of those political models. I would venture to say that our current government has more in common with Soviet Russia than it does with the original model of democracy. Our Founding Fathers would certainly think so. Democracy is a messy thing but it was never intended to support the tyranny of the masses nor, for that matter, the tyranny of the slight majority.
You do know nobody is going to take you seriously when you stick up for a person as dispicable as Joe Mac.
Seriously, though i really hope the Republican Party keeps trying to label Obama as either Socialist or Communist.
It is a losing strategy.
Losing or not, it’s the truth
Hardly. I know communists. My step mom was a card carrying communist. Obama is barely even liberal, not at all socialist, let alone communist. But go on bleating about communism and socialism, please! You are actually encouraging people to try them with your angry foaming. People figure, if you guys say it’s bad, it must be good, seeing as how badly your own ideas worked out in real life.
Comrade Seth !!!?
These smears no longer carry any weight. The average American sees your failed ideology, hears your smears and thinks, “Hmm, if these idiots are against it, maybe I should look into it.” But I’m not communist. I believe in private personal property (just not real estate or the means of production.) I also believe excellence should be rewarded. And pure communism is vulnerable to the exact same sorts of power-grab attacks that capitalism is. Marx saw the problem correctly, but he did not see a decent solution. Which is why many early anarchists were against his ideas. And that is why Lenin and Stalin purged all the anarchists.
Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Democratic Party?
I was there as a horny teenager.
Great line from a decent movie riddled with mediocrity.
And to preempt any other retorts: if I had (at long last) any sense of decency, would I continue posting on Pundit Kitchen?
Some things we will just never know my friend.
Liberal girls are *much* better looking than Conservative girls…. with a few exceptions – Palin… Hillary…
Up close and un-airbrushed, Palin is fugly.
Oh, she is not!! When do here pictures get airbrushed anyway, she’s not in Vogue or Penthouse… When have you seen her up close? She is gorgeous, there’s no arguing about that.
How can you carry a card for communism? You might belong to the ‘Communist Party” of China but that has nothing to do with being a communist. I think that there are very few examples of actual communism in the world. The Amish come very close as do the Mennonites. The Jews did it best with the kibbutzes. That is an actual community that owns itself, operates of itself and holds all of it’s members as equals. Does your mom live in a kibbutz?
Step mom. Well, sort of step mom. My mom and dad were in a three way relationship with her. They were hippies, it was the sixties, what can I say? And by card carrying communist, I mean she was a member of the Communist Party of America.
–
That’s a good list, but it’s not even close to complete. I guess it depends how you define communism. You may want to get some information on the Mondragon Cooperative in the Basque region of Spain. It’s huge, industrialized, and very modern. You may also want to read up on the history of communes and cooperatives here in America. From Oneida to the plywood cooperatives, it’s a rich and interesting history, some good, some bad. Oh, did I mention I’m a member of the IWW? Card carrying. I’m an Anarcho-Syndicalist.
–
Does that suffice to prove to you that I know what the hell I’m talking about, or do you need more convincing?
The Amish are many things, but i wouldn’t call communists one of them. Community ≠ Communism.
Lowercase “c” communism at it’s finest. They’ve a little bit of capitalism (selling goods to the outsiders) but for the most part it’s “from each according to his ability to each according to his need” down there in the Pennsylvania Dutch-lands.
A fine group of people. When I look at them I am filled with a deep self-loathing at my own pettiness and shortcomings.
Then I just get on the internet and realize that my sex life is way better. Least I sure as hell hope so. They might hide sex toys in the floorboards.
I am talking of communism as a society not the Communism you see in China. It is a completely different beast.
The Amish have very few personal possessions. The farm tractor is kept by the people who know how to operate it and keep it in good repair but it is not theirs.
The downside is that with that society you must also put up with a HUGE “busybody” phenomenon. If you are caring for something that other people have some opinion about, you will hear about, frequently, incessantly, maddeningly. I would not have the patience for their brand of “the simple life”.
I FAIL
But you have to get out that huge scale to see if they weigh the same as a duck, and you have to dress them up like witches, including the carrot nose, and they may turn you into a newt!
… but you’ll get better
How do you know so much about Witches?
‘Cause I dated him… too bad the newt thing didn’t stick… *not to self- use more toadstool next time…..*
Had the right amount of toadstool… just used too much toadstool softener.
Also needs more cowbell.
I guess yo unever decided to research any history other than what movies tell you. Mr. McCarthy was a great senator and loved by the people of America. You may want to research and learn that he was forced by Senate Democrats to reveal his list in front of the press though he repeatedly asked not to so asd not to defame anyone’s character before a trial. Also his list was completely spot on. I think you might want to learn what you are talking about before trying to expound on your nonsensical views of American history.
His list was spot on? Are you insane? Did the Holocaust happen in your Universe, because there’s some major right-wing revisionism going on in your Bizarro world.
He paraded his list around and ruined lives of people whose main offense was that they thought differently than he did. He got ruined because he tried to take his freak show and use it on the military, and support for his travesty of justice suddenly evaporated when he turned the game around on his backers.
you must be a really happy person!
So did Joe Mac have a list of 57 people? 81 people? 205?
I am sure he didn’t even know. He kept changing his numbers to suit his purposes whether they be in Wheeling, or in Washington.
Hell if you don’t know, make them up as you go.
Bravo for sticking up for scum like Joe Mac.
Well, at least you got your own name right.
Ha, so true! It may very well happen again if we aren’t vigillent, and instead of communist it’s “terrorist” or “socialist”. This whole completely un-democratic, un-American garbage people in McCain’s campaign have been spewing lately (not McCain himself, to be fair, at least from what I’ve heard) has me to boiling point. None of us have the right to tell anyone else they’re not a “real” American because they don’t agree with us, and using fear and misinformation to manipulate and divide people is inexcusable, no matter who does it.
Ya, I am rather annoyed with the True Scottsman fallacy being played in the political arena.
yeah, some crazy lady running for some office (congress I think) went on CNN and was saying the media should investigate which congress people have pro or anti-American sentiments. All I can say is, Dude, WTF?
That was Michele Bachmann, who’s running for congress here in MN. Funny thing is, she said those things and called Obama anti-American on MSNBC and that prompted people to donate almost $1 million to her rival. Now she’s pulling a Palin and saying she was trapped into saying those things. Heh, what a tool.
Oh, and I just also read that she pushed to have equal time in science classes for both evolution and intelligent design. So there’s a double fail.
She also believes that caribou like warm themselves by nuzzling against the Alaskan pipeline…
*snicker* Gee, how did those caribou survive for millenia without that pipeline if now they can’t live without it?
Ya, she shot her own career to death. Darwin is pleased.
Bachmann is also the same dumbass who remarked a couple of years back how great it is that some have to work more than one job to make ends meet.
“I am so proud to be from the state of Minnesota. We’re the workingest state in the country, and the reason why we are, we have more people that are working longer hours, we have people that are working two jobs.”
I love that she used the word “workingest”. Srsly?
As a hrt attk.
Thats almost as bad as the Louisiana state senator who wants to give
(and this is the important part) $1000 to POOR women and men to get
vasectomies and hysterectomies. While giving tax breaks to wealthy
families for having more children.
My question: How do these people get elected?
I’m trying to think of something sarcastically cheeky, but that just makes my blood boil.
(Or as the missus is studying Chinese Medicine, perhaps I ought to say that bullshit makes my liver yang rise.)
It’s *LOUISIANA*. You just answered your own question. Up until Jindal (sp?) got into office, Louisiana had more dead people voting than any other state in the union. I can haz rigged elections?
Hmmmmm, comment didn’t nest. To reiterate:
It’s *LOUISIANA*. You just answered your own question. Up until Jindal (sp?) got into office, Louisiana had more dead people voting than any other state in the union. I can haz rigged elections?
Reiteration dually noted…
heehee puns are funny.
I don’t think people working themselves to the bone is something to be praised that highly. It speaks more of the problems inherent in the system.
Violence is inherent in the system!
I’m being repressed! (Oh, no wait, I’m not…)
Did you see him repressing me??
I love her excuse: “I’d never seen Hardball. I didn’t know what kind of show it was.”
“Lets spread the wealth around”
Is anyone else suspecting that this “Obama” is EP in disguise?
Saying anything relevant to the conversation at hand….FAIL!
Really, the extent of this country’s troubling degree of anti-intellectuallism and our failing school system is now glaringly apparent given the calibur of people running for office now. When I read “workingest” and “I’d never seen Hardball….” a piece of me died.
I can claim I have heard of Hardball, but would it surprise you if I said I’ve never watched it? I honestly can’t stand Chris Matthews.
Haven’t watched it either. Not watching a show is not cause to lynch somebody. There is plenty of material to work with to poke Palin with a stick, no need to fuss over little things.
Oh wait, not Palin. The other idiot woman in this conversation. *dismissive wave*
It’s not so much not seeing hardball, heck, Chris Matthews and that show ARE annoying. The thing is, if you were actually going on the show for an interview, like she was, the smart thing do to would be to watch some of it for preperation’s sake.
The captions should read: “New Poster Format: Always less funny than poorly spelled captions.”
*Snort* Yeah, I do prefer the old way, though I do think in this case, the poster was effective.
Or maybe “If you want funny posters, go to despair.com.” That is what people are riffing on with this format, but they just aren’t funny most of the time. Not like despair.
–
“Meetings: None of us is as dumb as all of us”
“Corruption: I want either less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it.”
“Dreams: dreams are like rainbows. Only idiots chase them.”
“Wishes: When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it’s really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all life. Then you’re pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for. Unless it’s death by meteor. “
Ya, if there is going to be corruption I WANT IN!!!
My favorites are “Customer Service: Maybe if we treat the customer badly enough, they’ll stop bugging us.”
And
“Serivce: We’re not happy, until you’re not happy.”
I had the “Meetings” one up as the background on my pc at work. then that pc was used to display a nationwide map of all of our fleet on the one of the big screens they put in our operations area… My background got changed
Law of Life’s Highway: If everything is coming your way, you’re in the wrong lane.
-
Emergency: Poor planning on your part doesn’t constitute an emergency on mine.
-
Firearms: First in importance to having a good aim is knowing when to pull the trigger.
-
George Bush: Reality seems so near I swear I can almost reach out and touch it.
Eddie, you’re the father I never got to have.
Witch Hunting? I’m all for it, but only if the one being hunted is named Voldemort.
Gender fail.
“Witch” is a gender-neutral term.
Only in the real world, not in Harry Potter’s world.
Check mine (click on name)
*smirk*
Or Fleur Delacour…but without that whole burning at the stake thing. If I caught Fleur, I’d just keep her.
Who cares? Snape rules!
Wonder what he would have thought of ol’ McCarthy???
Trust me. You do NOT want to know.
*Lip curls*
Ha, I can now have tons of fun imagining the fun Snape could have with McCarthy. Bring on the hexes!
Alas! A cornucopiea of love!
Love potions are NOT what he would be getting …
*icy glare*
(ps – my name now links to my lols for more geeky Harry Potter refs and stuff ..)
Yay! thanks!
I love that the actor who plays him *owns* the character; I can’t not hear his voice when I read your post.
Alan Rickman. He speaks to me
ooooohh, me too!
Actually, I think that entire movie series has been very well cast. I can’t read the series without seeing Dan Radcliff, Rupert Grint, and Emma Watson. I can see a different Ginny Weasley, however, but not Fred or George.
Yes, I am a Potter geek.
Me too. I more wish the actress would play Ginny with all the spunk and personality she has in the books, but then, they haven’t given her a chance to do much at all in the movies.
I agree. I can’t not hear that voice when I post under that name. It’s almost like being possessed. Brr.
And the casting for the movies is, in fact, awesome.
However, I am going to have one very, very difficult time watching pt 2 of Deathly Hallows when it’s released.
And to think that Hermoine had been displaying healing skills, and neither she nor Potter had the presence of mind to check Snape’s pockets for a bezoar in case that snake was packing venom!
Dunderheads, indeed!
Or thought to revive Snape so they would have a witness to Peter Petegrew being alive instead of dead…
Yeah—-ask Joe the Plumber about it!!!!!!!
Attempt to be funny and with the times FAIL.
Trying to flame- FAIL
Its a strategy as old as the Roman Empire. Fabricate enemies and keep the people scared. First it was Immigrants. Then it was Commies. Then it was Krauts and Gooks. Then it was Commies again. Then it was Socialists. Then it was Immigrants again. Then it was Towelheads. Then Socialists again. And on and on it goes…
Is this a great country, or what? Only in America can such public enemies demonstrate such diversity. And you know what… Obama knows all of them and launches his campaigns from their houses…
I heard Obama was the one who added all of the fraudulent names to McCarthy’s
list as to discredit the republican party in a huge Demo-socialist-crat conspiracy!
And it nearly worked, too. If that crazy Ayers hadn’t gone running around teaching inner city kids he’d have gotten away with it.
Zoinks!
Jinkies!
I keep thinking it says Witchnuts.
Also good roasting on an open fire surprisingly.
Lots of protein too!
*snorts* Trying… to keep… mind… out of…. gutter.
ARGH!
Well, it was that whole eating of insects discussion from the other thread! That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!!
“Sticking to it eh”?
Noooo! You make it too easy!
You just WANT to be in that gutter!!
It’s fun down here. And Oscar Wilde is here too: “We are all of us living in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
In bed.
One of us… One of us!
The Greater Good!
Yarp.
If I might advise, you should have said, “good roasting on YOUR open fire.”
The threat of communism was very real. There in fact were communists in the federal government. Those on the left like to characterize the threat of Communism as McCarthyism, while ignoring the two greatest genocides in China and the USSR who were killed in the name of Communism.
Notice “in the name of”. The US had a long history of a working representative democracy, perhaps communism or socialism would work better in the US because of that, rather than descending into totalitarianism.
But we’re cool with Communist China now, right? As long as they’re putting Americans out of work, and buying our companies.
Don’t forget I made them a “Favored Nation” as to trade status, before I gave them nuclear secrets! Uh, just a second….
Hey there, sweet thing ! (SLAP)
stop sharing…it really is your truck.
Something I have noted about the modern left: you only talk to and listen to yourselves. It is therefore understandable that you think yourselves both “mainstream” and “centrist”. You are neither.
Most of you Leftists who post here–which is most of you, with a handful of exceptions–lack both knowledge of history and the intellectual honesty to either seek out or admit the facts. Communists–they still exist–are the enemies of the United States. Some of you have talked of the “freedom” to elect “Socialists”–which is merely a euphemism for Communists. Communism has been a failure everywhere it has been tried. And once Communists are elected into power, those are historically the last free elections in that unfortunate country for a long time.
Obama has repeatedly spoken and written of his admiration for Communism and Socialism–which is to say, Communist Socialism, which is to say Marxism. THE MAN IS A COMMUNIST IN ALL BUT NAME. McCarthy was correct, but was successfully discredited in his time by the American Socialist movement. As a result, Communists and Socialists have infiltrated our schools and government to the point that they are on the verge of putting another man in the White House. (I am convinced that Bill Clinton was a mole. After all, he got away with things for which Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed in the 50s.)
The Republican party got in bed with the Religious right some time back. People like Jerry Falwwell had a political agenda, and they bought and paid for a few conservative players. It’s not popular to rip on people’s religion, right? So they play the religious freedom card and play martyr for years until they’ve got a stranglehold on the conservatives, who have now drifted so far right they make Pat Buchanan look like a moderate. The whole system has become skewed, partly because Christian conservatives have so much hold over the republican party that they don’t even look like the same party they did under Reagan, let alone further back. It’s also partly because those same republicans have had control over the presidency and congress for most of the last 30 years. It’s become too ingrained, which is why McCain looks like such a right-wing tool theses days instead of the self-proclaimed “maverick” he once was.
If we look at the parties as they were, Obama falls squarely in the center. Obama loves America, he cares about small business and building the American Dream. He is only trying to make sure that dream remains accessible to all, as the founding fathers intended when they specifically stated things like “no titles of nobility shall be granted.” Obama may or may not have said he admires those economic philosophies, I didn’t read the book. Admiring an IDEAL does not mean someone wants to immediately implement it. This is silly all/nothing thinking. The fact remains that America has always been a combination of capitalism and socialism. No one wants to change that. Use your logic.
You lack understanding of communism, socialism, Obama, history and probably several other things.
Obama is actually a little right of centre, McCain is just much further right. Click my name for more.
Communism is better phrased as anarcho-socialism. Communism is about as small as government can get (which is part of what conservatives want, yes?).
Socialism is one form of ideal government that will likely never be achieved in full because there are people who a greedy in the world. But nonetheless, many countries have strong elements of socialism, and they work without destroying democracy.
USSR and China are/were not true communist countries, the revolutions were in the name of communism, but in reality they were forms of totalitarianism/despotism. Communism wasn’t the failure, the people in charge were.
You should read you own introduction, look in the mirror and apply it to everyone you see. McCArthy was and always will be an egotistical fascist-wannabe, and anyone who thinks that he was right is Un-American. Perhaps you should move to Argentina.
We need about 100 Joe McCarthy’s now.
gotta say that, reading these comments, I find it really weird and vaguely amuzing that there are still Americans out there who are scared of Reds under the bed etc. I acknowledge that, for America, Obama is fairly left wing but seriously guys, just about eveyone else acknowledges him as centre right. If the people who think he is a Socialist/Communist were over here (Europe) they’d flip their nut! Yet we still have all of the freedoms you guys do. Deary me!