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not now honey, Mommy is busy taking away your rights as a woman
(John McCain & Sarah Palin)
picture: dunno source, via our lol builder. lol caption:
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Cheezburger Network Blog
hahahaha
Hmm, GREAT microphone placement….
I like how the little girl’s head is tilted at the same angle as the microphone AND Sarah Palin’s hand.
Oh, and great microphone placement! Could explain McCain’s illegitimate black daughter……..
Hey yen, hands off McCain’s daughter. I’m from SC and I remember what the repubes did here during the last election. Not fair to drag a great kid into a mud-slinging battle.
But, the mic placement is priceless…
And then McCain turns around and hires those same people and starts his own smears … character and honor?
Oh wow. This is starting to stop being ridiculous. Now it’s just mean.
Can’t disagree that it’s mean…but as someone who’s been tracking the campaign, I also must point out that it’s HILARIOUS!
I mean come on, since when have POLITICIANS not been fair game for making fun of?
Not really mean. I did vote against this because it was dumb.
Well, not so much dumb as just artlessly true.
PunditKitchen, where liberals come to laugh and conservatives come to cry….
Awesome, bring in more children we can mock. Well done.
[/sarcasm], for those who can’t tell.
We could tell.
Your obliviousness was far more apparent.
I’m no stranger to sarcasm, sir.
Get real, it is not mocking the child, so quit being a wuss.
Well put Charlie Foxtrot – Palin is the one being mocked, not the cute kid. Sheesh people, use your friggin’ brains.
Has anyone else noticed that alot of stupid people are going for McCain for stupid reasons. I’m sick and tired of people saying that “Obama will take our guns awa” Even the NRA said that this wasn’t true. Maybe it’s because I’m in hick country. By the way, I’m sure people are going for Obama for stupid reasons too, but what is with people wanting to go for McCain because of Palin? Ok, McCain is old, I get this, he might die, I get this too. Now why is the Vice Prez THE deciding factor on your pic for prez?
BTW, this pic is epic. Settle down, it’s funny. I laugh at the Obama jokes too, I don’t get all bent out of shape.
As the national rifle association says, “It’s not guns that kill people.
It’s maneuvers…”
Good Izzard reference. +2 points.
“Even the NRA said that this wasn’t true” That’s not whats on the NRA website.
“The truth must scare Obama, and the truth is, Barack Obama is the most anti-gun candidate who has ever run on a major party ticket in American history.”
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=4183
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html
Because some conservatives are stupid.
But then you have the utterly brainless morons who think they’re contributing to some sort of human rights act by voting the half black guy with no policies and incredibly vague and changing opinions in.
But you know whats terrible, theres a group on facebook called “I’d vote for McCain if Palin poses for playboy” or something. Now thats what I call stupid ‘08!
Obama does have plans and policies – far more clearly spelled out than McCain’s are. They are on his website.
And my name links to a tax calculator that shows what you would pay under both of their plans as reported.
As a single person no dependents I save $800 under Obama, how about you?
Roughly, (since I gave very basic info) about $400-500. Not too bad, not too great. I would rather save a couple thousand but that politician doesn’t exist.
I get back 502 bucks, with McCain, I’d get ziltch. I work plenty hard and need even that little bit back way more then Mr. C.E.O, whether he’s C.E.O of a huge business or a relatively small one.
and that’s just what I get back, am taxed less to begin with.
This is getting out of hand… srsly… the liberal bias of the people on this site is sickening.
wonder how many women were destroyed because of abortion… abortion is anti-feminist.
Wonder how many women were destroyed when abortion was illegal.
zing!
Well then keep your legs closed. and/or don’t put yourself in stupid situations. and/or just let God be in control with what He’s doing.
Why would god cause a woman to become pregnant if he knew she would get an abortion?
Or if he knew it was a rape or incest? That’s a pretty sick God. Let’s not get me started on the fact that God makes child birth so painful in the first place.
God does stuff like that because he wants to teach people a lesson. Obey him or you’ll burn forever in hell. BUT HE STILL LOVES YOU. lol.
Please don’t speak for God.
Don’t make God angry. You won’t like him when he’s angry.
Don’t make me come down there.
Bring it on, ya pansy!
Did someone call for me?
Please don’t speak about fairytale creatures like they are real.
Shun the unbeliever!
Yeah, they’re not allowed to speak for God. That’s your job, right?
Maybe cause God doesn’t bail people out when they make stupid decisions? You know. Kinda like our government is doing. It tends to make people grow into better people if they have to weather difficulty.
How does burning in hell make you a better person?
Better tasting perhaps? Raw human flesh is just gross tasting.
Not to mention crispier
When did I say people would burn in hell?
why does god choose to get idiots pregnant who can’t take care of their own children? what happens when no one benefits or grows into a ‘better person for it’ is that gods fault then? or does he only cause good things to happen?
I don’t understand this god thing. I never went to church. could someone explain it logically?
aren’t the children rotting in hell when their drug addict parents can’t look after them? Or is god not responsible for that, he’s only responsible for the people that pull themselves through?
and also, hahaha! Abstinence, keeping your legs closed… taught in sarah palin’s household… A CLEAR WINNER
Theres this thing called ‘adoption’. Its where we move innocent kids from parents incapable of looking after them to live with a family suitable to do so. Many of us, the kids involved included prefer it a lot more to being mercilessly torn from the womb because of no reason other than ‘circumstances’.
No, Lallz, I think you are mistaken. “Adoption” is when two people choose to take
a child not of their own into their family.
“Protective Custody” is when the government removes a child from insuitable parents and put it into a “shelter”.
Clear on the difference?
There’s a good project for you. You trot off and sort out adoptions for all the unwanted, abandoned, and removed from the parental home out there in the U.S. and then perhaps you can start to insist that there are happy and secure places for those who at the moment do not come to term.
There are several hundred thousand of them out there at the moment ready to move in with you.
Not all kids are moved to capable families. I don’t think these girls would have preferred where they went…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/29/AR2008092900796.html?hpid=topnews
how is rape a stupid decision?
The reason Palin wouldn’t pay for Rape kits in Wasilla is because the hospital offered the morning after pill to rape victims.
So, Wasilla (highest rape incidence in Alaska during her term) Actually cut the line item out of the town budget (which she signed) that used to pay for rape kits because she felt no woman should have the state pay for the morning after drug.
This is what our America could look like if this woman gets into the president’s chair. Not only is she laughably clueless about … well, everything … but she also has extreme right wing views that she has no problem inflicting on us.
I have no respect for fanatics of any stripe and this woman is a fanatic. Did you see the witch hunter? He is worse than Jeremiah Wright.
I was a bit vague on that too. How is rape a decision for the victim?
Yes, that magical invisible man in the sky is going to make everything peachy! lololololol
Yeah God’s always in control. Like when kids are born severely disabled and spend their 7 months of life in a hospital room being fed by tubes and soothed by pain killers.
HALLELUJAH!
Anyway without using extreme situations, saying something as simple as “keep your legs closed” has never worked throughout the course of history, and families end up with kids they can’t support. Of course abortion is horrible and there needs to be some individual responsibility, but making abortion illegal dun wurk wel.
Especially since keeping your legs closed doesn’t give you protection versus rape.
I think that’s what Papa Troll meant by “Don’t put yourself in stupid situations”. As we all know, if a woman gets raped, she probably did something to deserve it.
Oh? Like perhaps actually having a life and doing something for herself instead of marrying the first man that comes along and staying home for the rest of her life. Or maybe she just didn’t wear her hijab to market that day like a good subservient woman. Senseless women, thinking they actually people.
sorry… yes…. women deserve to be raped occasionally, when they make a mistake. Like they deserve to be beaten for burning the roast.
Sometimes they are just asking for it. I know if I don’t get head at least five times a week, I get cranky… And there will be hell if I feel hunger pangs!!!
yes all 14 year old girls that are raped by their fathers probably deserved it.
Come to think of it, I kinda like it when my lady’s legs are together when I’m behind her. There goes that expression… Sorry if that was too crass for anyone…
Oooooh, good point. Makes it all tight and fun.
AHAHAHAHAHA. Just out of curiosity, what color is the sky in your world?
God who? Please don’t suggest that I let an imaginary being take control of my life! If this god dude is so great, why does he allow people to commit acts of violence against innocent women and girls, then expect them to pay the price? Does he have something against them?
AND if you say that women “ask” for rape, I hope your imaginary being sends you a nice lightning bolt…
Please don’t criticize people’s religions, but others should also refrain from using their religion as an excuse for any action. People should just realize that abortion is wrong because it is immoral to take life away under any circumstances. I personally do not believe in any higher power, but when people take on the perspective that you do; that if God existed why doesn’t he control these horrible outrages, they neglect the fact that people are responsible for these outrages and that people can also help solve these problems as well.
“People should just realize that abortion is wrong because it is immoral to take life away under any circumstances.”
Funny, then, that the most ardent anti-abortionists are very much pro-death penalty and pro-war.
I’ve known 12 women that have had abortions; none of them made the decision flippantly; all of them still contemplate the decision, but do not regret making it.
“Funny, then, that the most ardent anti-abortionists are very much pro-death penalty and pro-war.”
The hypocrisy required to pull this mentality off is dizzying.
People who are pro-abortion are typically anti-war and anti-death penalty. The hypoc…Do you see how stupid what you just said is? Abortion, Death Penalty and War have ABSOLUTELY NO DAMN THING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER! Please disconnect your internet connection and remove your stupidity from the current surplus.
They are all to do with death. Anti-abortionists say that you shouldn’t kill an unborn baby. But they often support the death penalty, which is all about kiiling. And war, which also tends to result in plenty of death.
Unborn baby=unable to make its own decisions. Grown man who is facing death penalty=adult able to make the decision to murder and is charged to face his crimes. Armies and war=grown men who decide to sign up facing the chance that they will be sent to war to kill others and die themselves. Apples and oranges, guys.
Having said that, I am pro-life and always will be. However, the ‘book of fairy tales’ that was referenced in a different thread tells me that I can’t judge someone for what they do. I may not agree with it. I may wish it would go away. But I WILL NOT tell someone they are going to hell for doing what they feel is the right thing. Herb, your story shows us that there are so many different factors to it that you can’t be so arrogant as to say that any of us humans has it right. That is between us and whatever god we worship. My God tells me to love my neighbor, and that includes those who do things I don’t necessarily agree with. If any of you dipsticks trying to quote the Bible to prove your point that you are right and everyone else is wrong, I will give you a quote you can put in your pipe and smoke. Just let me know that you actually want to hear it. Email me. My name @yahoo.com.
Actually Death Penalty is a Judge deciding if a man lives or dies and the law backing him up either way. The man murders/rapes somebody which I feel deserves death everytime, personally. However the law decides to have degrees and gray area to allow for the man to live or die based on the almost arbitrary decision of jury members and the supposed educated decision of a judge.
War is almost never the choice of the people actually fighting it. They are there to defend their country but the cause of the war might have nothing to do with their morals or beliefs.
Abortion is the choice of a mother to kill the unborn child in her womb.
All concern death. Those are the most adamant about prolife tend to bring up the sanctity of life and how it is absolute but then they support war and the death penalty.
I am an oddball in that I support a woman’s right to choose, I support war if we are actually there for a worthy cause, and I am a vindictive person who believes in the death penalty. Why? Because in all things I believe in choice. The man/woman chooses to rape/murder, the soldier choose to serve, and finally the mother chooses not to be a mother.
Okay, how about this? Why is it that people who are pro-life are typically anti-gay? Who gets the least abortions, anyway? That’s right, the gays!
Those who are anti-abortion, seem to be pro-fertility treatments. I find that interesting. Since abortion is against God’s will, isn’t forcefully creating a baby in the womb of a woman that God has decided CAN’T have children against all that is natural? Not that I am against fertility treatments, but are all these infertile women going to start adopting those babies being born once abortion is made illegal? They are not doing them now. So please do not throw the fallacy of some God in the mix when you all are just as hypocritical as the next.
Oh and let’s not forget what fertility babies end up costing the tax payers when these god-fearing women choose not to reduce their 5 or 6 babies. Millions of dollars. We called them in the NICU, more million dollar babies are taxes are paying for. FACT.
Not to mention all those IVF treatments generally result in extra embryos that are kept frozen and tossed when they get too old. Where’s the outrage there?
This has nothing to do with any ‘god’. Only to do with what is morally reprehensible.
Morals which are completely subjective to the individual… Ergo, your morals do not equal the morals of another.
Let me baby-step you through it. If you get dizzy, look at the floor.
* As a Pro-Choice individual, I believe that life is sacred and should be preserved, but in extreme times, the alternative needs to exist.
* As a Pacifist, I believe that life is sacred and should be preserved, but in extreme times, the alternative needs to exist.
Doing okay now?
(My opposition to the death penalty is the result of the fallibility of the criminal system as the death of an innocent person is irreversible.)
So if a girl gets raped by her father and becomes pregnant you still want to force her to become a walking incubator for 9 months. Wow.
Yet, you want to force the human being inside the “incubator”
(as you so, disrespectfully, call a pregnant woman) to die?
No wonder abortion exists in this world if a pregnant woman is reduced
to being simply an “incubator”.
There is a very big difference between a pregnant woman and a 14 years victiim of sexual abuse / incest.
You are a complete idiot if you think otherwise.
Also, if more Pro-Life zombies opened their eyes and realized how over-crowded every single orphanage in the US and read the statistics about how many of those kids NEVER get adopted and are driven to homelessness, drug abuse and prostitution at age 18, not to mention their inevitable reliance on welfare and government aid that Republican dickwads rally against so often, maybe they’d reconsider their outdated, bible-banging position on everything.
Oh, wait. No they won’t. It’s too hard to reverse 2,000 years of brainwashing.
Most pro-lifers don’t care how horrible a child’s life is as long as that child is born.
To some (like Palin) the Pill is even considered an abortificant (sp) The morning after drug which means the egg never sticks to the wall of the uterus is also an abortion.
There are a few whackos who are vocal enough to make the rest of us look bad. And you’re projecting about the Pill, which in no way is considered an abortion. There are pills which cause an abortion, just not The Pill. There was a huge discussion (fight?) when the morning after pill came out about whether or not it was murder, but that was mostly the Catholic church at the time they considered every form of BC to be murder (ever heard the song “Every Sperm is Sacred”? hehehe). Palin isn’t Catholic. Most denominations like Baptist, CoC, Methodist, and the like have no problem with BC.
Actually, technically the Pill would be considered an abortionary aid, as it doesn’t PREVENT pregnancy, it prevents a fertilized egg from staying in the womb. That’s why the Pill is frowned upon, mainly because doctors that give it out, very rarely point this out.
Like I said, that’s typically the Catholic problem, not the mainstream Christian view. And if I remember my Pill stuff correctly, the Pill keeps you from ovulating.
if it kept you from ovulating you would have no periods. And Palin opposes birth control for the abortionary effect.
And so… you kill the child? If society is unable to support the child
then it’s the society that should change not kill the child.
Too many kids in your society? No problem! We’ll nip ‘em in the bud before you can even pop ‘em out! This is how callous all of your remarks seem to me.
yours seem more callous to me because you discount the pain of victims and parents or terminally ill children
Should someone who murders another be killed for his or her own actions? You say no. Yet, you seem perfectly content with killing a defenseless and guiltless baby for the actions of another.
And terminally ill children have nothing to do with this conversation.
I have every right to criticize. People can believe whatever they want, but when they try to force their agenda on the rest of us, I’m not going to go along with it out of politeness.
Morality is subjective.
William Wilberforce preached to the British Parliament every spare minute for nine years, fighting to impose his “subjective” moral values on the entire British Empire.
“Some things are wrong because they are wrong, and there should be laws against them and people shouldn’t do them.”
He wound up getting the slave trade banned from the British Empire. He changed the world for Good and forever.
His arguement was that we are Christians, and Christians should not engage in such obvious evil. So a Christian people should pass a law that does the Good that Christ wants, and not the evil that men want.
I suppose there are men in the world today who insist that morality is subjective, and Wilberforce tried to mix religion with politics, and slavery should be re-instated, because, after all, we can’t have laws in effect that promote the Christian religion, can we?
But Jesus was pro-slavery.
Just saying, is all…
Exsqueeze me?
Sources? References?
Well, as clearly demonstrated by others toting religious dogma, one, only needs to cite for source the Bible. In this case, I recommend EPH 6:5, 1 TIM 6:1-2, LUK 12:47-48.
Out of context. Besides, Jesus was a big proponent of “rendering unto Caesar”, whether He agreed with the particular Caesar or not. The custom at the time was to have slaves, and Jesus never demanded that you revolt against anyone. He wanted you to trust Him to take care of the bad stuff, because life is never fair. Jesus never told anyone it would be easy, or fair, or even make any sense. He said that He would never give you more than you could bear. Just because he mentioned a disgusting custom of the times doesn’t mean he was for it. Protesting through love and other non-violent ways worked for people like Ghandi and MLK.
Gandhi and MLK still spoke out against the acts instead of saying Render onto Ceasar. They still spoke out, love.
I never said they didn’t speak out, I said they didn’t try to incite violence. Jesus taught the same thing. Speak out, but in love. The only time He got violent was when they were misusing the Temple.
This discussion is extremely hard right now because I’m looking at my beautiful daughter and can’t imagine life without her. But I also can’t imagine what would have been if I hadn’t been married and had a good job at the time I got pregnant with her. I refuse to try to dictate anyone else’s beliefs for them, as I said earlier. I can’t imagine what Herb went through, or what you went through, even for that 10 seconds. I was scared because my daughter was born at 33 weeks, but she cried immediately and was out of the NICU in 12 days. That’s beyond lucky, considering some of the other children who were in there with her. So I can’t imagine not going out of my way to save this precious life I have with me now. BUT, having said that, I can’t imagine what other people have to go through. So I WILL NOT dictate a course of action based off my beliefs. I believe it, however you are not obligated to believe the same. I will tell you if you ask, I will stir things up a little on here for the fun of it, but I won’t tell you that you are going to hell for having a different belief system than I do.
Just all the more reason to adore you, hun. I get a little ill in these debates too because we did consider abortion for our first because of the circumstances which are messy to get into so I won’t. Now I just hurt to think of a world without his mischief. It is why I get so indignant when people try to say that abortion is easy, even to just consider. It isn’t. I do believe it is a life but I also believe in desperate measures. I am just glad I had a choice in the matter, a choice I was given by my fiancee’. That choice made all the difference and I don’t regret any of it. My oldest is beautiful just as my youngest is beautiful.
I love my boys and I am glad you love your daughter. Now I just have to worry about my woman trying to talk me into trying for a girl. T_T
But yea, I am getting sappy on a lol site and that is a sin against… something I’m sure. So I am going to be done here unless Gabe decides to stir up trouble.
*sigh* I have to worry what my husband will do when my daughter brings home a boy for the first time. It may be the first recorded 144th trimester abortion
Or whatever the number is, lol. I’m too busy getting ready for work to do the math.
I told my girl that if we had a girl, I would have to buy a hat, shotgun, and rocking chair. I also told her to keep me from killing the boys that come over. So I am not sure how that will go.
What happens when your boy brings home a boy
I somehow doubt that will be a problem with my oldest. He flirts heavily with every girl he can see. So I would guess that would happen with my youngest since he is only four months old and I can’t get a read on what he likes yet. Guy/Guy invokes my ick reflex but I wouldn’t hold it against him. Just tell him to be careful and that I will beat him with a stick if he gives me any details. For those who might try and call me out on the opposite, if my boy tries to give me any details about his girlfriend, I will be weirded out and sic his mother on him.
In Jesus’ day, slavery was not what we associate it with. It had nothing to do with race, it was more a form of indentured servitude; often a means to pay off a debt, or just a plain ol’ job (labor in exchange for food, clothing, and shelter.)
I love the smell of out-of-context citation in the morning.
Herb. . herb. . *shakes head* you might as well be referencing Harry Potter book pages because the bible holds the same validity. It is a story. I am not in any way demeaning your religion, but by trying to justify an argument in a debate that i purely (or should be) secular your bible holds no ground for justification.
And you should really learn to read things in context. He was debating those who use religion as reasoning, therefore he brought up evidence from their own source.
Learn more before you decide to be patronizing.
The Jewish faith actually calls for abortion in extreme cases – Severely deformed fetus, danger to the mother’s life, health or wellbeing. So your pro-life stance based on religion would interfere with the Jewish faith.
Now, lets talk about “moral code and should JUST be wrong to everyone”
denying rape victims the morning after pill is an obvious evil as far as I’m concerned.
And why do you immediately assume that I am pro-war or pro-death
penalty? Because the media says that I should be? By the way, I oppose both.
You can’t assume abortion is wrong without bringing your God into it. No where do we have a clear scientific sense of when life begins. So everyone just runs back to the book of fairy tales for an absolute black-and-white answer, that has no actual bearing on the complexities of real life, and the actual real life situations that may call for solutions that can only be found in the moment, not in some imaginary God’s laws.
You want us to keep folks religion out of it? Ok, you just get all the pro-lifers to start and the rest of us who don’t want God in the equation in anyway will be more than happy to follow suit.
I see, “Nuclear Syngamy as the beginning of a human being” is obviously not Science then, is it?
Right. Because only promiscuous women get abortions. Those women who have ectopic pregnancies always carry to term. And those women with endometriosis, they all carry to term as well. And married women who are childfree, they carry to term too! And families that look at the cost of having a child or being pregnant and realize they cannot afford for the wife to be pregnant, they all go spiraling into poverty because they also do not get abortions.
Only sluts and whores get abortions. Thanks for clearing that one up.
Wow, aren’t you just a creepy one…
Well, that’s a great solution. Ok ladies, you heard KH! Unless you specifically want to get pregnant, DON’T HAVE SEX! EVER. No matter how much your husband or boyfriend wants to. If they complain that they’re dying of blue balls, calmly explain to them that you’re sorry, but you just can’t risk it, because abortion is WRONG. I’m sure they’ll understand.
The Alan Guttmacher Institute reports that there has been about 39,290,477 abortions since 1973.
So I’m just guessing maybe half of those would have been women. So I’m also guessing that is still more than the number of women hurt by illegal abortions.
Unless you mean emotionally destroyed, as was suggested by the proponents of abortion in Roe V. Wade. In that case no one knows the number.
Also, abortions elsewhere kill more females . (China? Japan?)
Under the precept of protecting women Roe v Wade opened the door for millions of women to not face the consequences of their behavior. It opened the door for so many to just use the “its my body” argument to not even think twice about killing off a human being. Yay progress.
But let’s be real, it’s NEVER going to overturned, so I think everyone has their panties in a bunch over nothing.
If you think having an abortion is “not facing consequences” you’re living in a dream w world. Abortion isn’t an easy out; it’s one way of facing and dealing with the consequences. And for many women it’s the best way of dealing with the situation. It’s absurd to regard the destruction of a clump of cells, or even a rudimentary organism,, as equivalent to destroying the life of a living, breathing, thinking, feeling human being.
The abortion decision is very, very cold. We considered it given the circumstances of our first boy but made the decision to keep him. Still, the thought of it makes my stomach ill all over again.
No, it is not an easy way out, let alone even easy to consider.
A hell of a lot less than have been aborted since it was made legal!!
seriously research before you say something. Even NARAL will admit to the number of abortions going up (even per capita) since it was made legal. Research is your friend.
No abortion is a choice. It isn’t a mandatory choice. The only side insisting on making a woman’s choice for her is… well… The conservatives. That would be anti-feminists, now wouldn’t it?
What choice do the aborted unborn women get in the matter?
The *only* choice being forced on *anyone* is by the multi-billion dollar abortion industry.
The ones that forced a choice on the American people were the non-elected Supreme Court
justices that created a “right” from “penumbras, formed by emanations”, i.e., vapors.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t… but unless it’s you having the abortion, it isn’t any of your business. Or mine, or anyone else’s.
Say that to a woman who’s been raped and was pregnant and has to carry the fetus for 9 months when/if abortion is illegal. Tell them it’s anti-feminist.
Have you ever know anybody in that situation? How do you know how they
would react. Your ignorance is sickening. I in fact know a person who has been
raped and chose to keep the child because they actually understood their responsibility as a life bearer.
I know someone who was raped and committed suicide because they couldn’t get an abortion. So shut your mouth with your life bearer responsibility anecdotal bullshlt.
I know 2 people who killed themselves because they were horribly depressed and didn’t get treatment. I know one woman who decided to have the baby after being raped because she felt that no more violence should become of the situation and it wasn’t the baby’s fault it was conceived that way.
Most importantly I know 7 women who had abortions of convenience that were never raped, molested, or in any other way in a situation out of their own control.
That’s just the 7 I personally know.
The reason abortion is sickening to some people is because of the way is it misused by women. Not because of victim’s having a legal recourse.
Not getting an abortion doesn’t make you a person without rights.
Losing a baby in a miscarriage at 4 and a half months and seeing how perfectly formed and innocent it is (Versus a “mass of cells”) sometimes makes you Pro Life.
Everybody has a story.
Let’s make abortions illegal!
Is that going to stop the early termination of pregnancies? Sorry to pop your bubble, bucky, but no. It will only lead to an increase in circumstantial deaths of the mother, particularly if she’s lower-class.
What shall the punishment be? Death? Life in prison? 10-20 years?
And why not charge women for miscarriages? They must have done something wrong, or else the pregnancy would have carried to term.
(Because as we all know a $300 procedure is *far* more insufferable than $48K in medical fees, not including funerary costs, for the child born with terminal aberration.)
I didn’t say anything about making it illegal. But everybody has a story and an opinion of why they think it’s right or wrong, Bucky.
Be let’s be real, it’s never going to overturned, Bucky.
It is ironic though that in one room of a hospital there can be a team of doctors working fervently to save a newborn’s life while in another he’s nonchalantly sucking it out of the womb. All based on the choice and intentions of the mom.
As for your bizarre “punishment ” scenario, WTF?? You make no sense. But it’s a nice touch to make fun of women who’ve had miscarriages of babies they wanted, Bucky.
And, Bucky. LMAO!!!
bucky…sheesh
So children are just dents in people’s pockets to you?
No. Children are far more to me than that. It is merely the furthest-removed example I can think of to underscore the point that due to an aberration of genetic replication 31 days after conception (or the vile machinations of a murderous god, take your pick) my daughter was slated to die. No ifs. No ands. No buts. She was going to die regardless if it were a swift, painless operation (to wit, an abortion) or a drawn out procedure of slow asphyxia.
Only we didn’t know. We chose not to pursue an inconclusive test, chose to trust that all would work out in the end.
Not a goddamned thing would have been different, save maybe the abject decimation of my life. An abortion would have weighed still heavily, but not as heavy as thirty-six hours of not sleeping, of singing “The Rainbow Connection” on endless loop because that seems to raise her oxygen saturation and maybe just maybe it could be that miracle. No amount of singing, no amount of praying, no amount of smashing my fist against the bathroom wall until my knuckles bloodied would (in the end) change anything. The pain would have been less, the burden of grief more manageable. What the vultures of industry did to our bank account, that we didn’t notice. My comment wasn’t about money; it was about suffering.
Forgive me, then, for wanting to find a euphemism.
With our next pregnancy, we left nothing to fate. We tested for development knowing full and well that while we could accept a child with disabilities, we could not suffer through another loss. I would say that with every child we plan on this, but for the fact we live in a state with an abundance of sanctimonious bastards like yourself wishing to enforce your so-called moral superiority over us hell-bound heathens.
you don’t see the miracles in your story only the pain. The miracle of a father that wishes for so much that he would sing rainbow connection endlessly. the miracle that it would raise the saturation when no physical law out there can account for it. the operation would have removed those.
When my sister was in a car accident when I was 4 and became a quadrapelegic yes there was pain but she now sees the miracles she has brought around. the people she has saved speaking about her accident. telling people to never drink and drive.
Those aren’t miracles. Those are every day occurences brought on by the emotion called hope. The miracle would have been the child living. That did not happen. There was no miracle. Herb has all my sympathy and thoughts as I know what it means to be a father trapped in a moment wishing for everything. My second son was born blue and not breathing. They managed to resuscitate him but for those ten seconds, I was in hell. Absolute hell. My fiancee’ was asking how he is and all I could think is that I couldn’t tell this crying woman what was going on until I knew for certain. I could only tell her it was a boy.
Then, I got my miracle. It only took ten seconds but he cried nice and loud and my hell was over. Thinking I had witnessed a stillborn for ten seconds lets me know the difference between miracle and tragedy. Herb had a tragedy, I had a minor miracle since nothing else has gone wrong.
So don’t pull the miracle crap. Herb endured a tragedy and my heart goes out to him.
Oh wow. I’m sorry for your loss. I know it’s kind of out of step with the current climate in here, but… *virtual hug* And please give one to your wife/girlfriend/mother of the child for me, as well. No one should have to go through that kind of suffering.
That said…would you mind if I used you as an example of justified abortion? This is one of my pet Internet debates.
You are putting words into my mouth. No I never said you were going to hell. I don’t even believe in Hell. In fact, I’m not even a christian at all. And I agree that it is a great amount of suffering to go through. But if it could have saved the life of your child to sing all day and put yourself through that pain, don’t you think it would be worth it? Doctors make mistakes. The doctors kept telling my mom to abort my little sister because though she was extremely likely to have down syndrome, serious physical deformities, and likely to be miscarried. But my mom decided not to terminate the pregnancy and my sister stands beside me each day without any of the problems the doctors said she would have. My point is that doctors make mistakes and that you cannot make these types of judgments based on their opinion.
Who in the hell said that not getting an abortion made you a person without rights? They CHOSE to carry out the pregnancy.
And that person I am referring to is my currently my fiance who does struggle with depression. And both of us are pro-life because of her miscarriage. I just believe that life is unappreciated by too many of the people who push for pro-choice legislation.
Tell that to my two daughters. I chose to conceive and give birth to both of them.
Oh, so you sit there in your desk-chair theorizing on what you would do in a hypothetical situation that you have never experienced and will doubtfully ever experience. And you try to force these beliefs on others. Sounds a lot how ’science’ first began. When people theorized that the Earth was the center of the universe without any empirical evidence. I think before you form your opinions you should actually have some experience with it. Otherwise you opinion possesses little validity.
Ami I the only one finding this reply hilarious?
no i find it hilarious also.
Ditto
Science FAIL.
I take it you have had 17 babies of rape? Otherwise your experiences count for nothing so STFU yourself.
Stop saying pro-life. We’re all pro-life. Unfortunately, some of us are anti choice.
For the record, I had an abortion at 4 months last week, because it was determined I was going to miscarry. The baby was not developing correctly, and I was perpetually ill. However, I’m glad I had the option of receiving medical care, rather than going through it myself. Furthermore, had I simply miscarried, any future children would have been miscarried as well, because I would not have known that with my negative blood type, I needed a special shot.
And you know what else? Another woman’s personal choice, as when you talk about matters of “convenience” is really none of your concern. It’s not your body, it does not affect you personally, so stay out of it.
You could have still miscarried and found out that you needed the special shot. Yes I am familiar with this. My mother is a gynecologist. And honestly I belive you should have waited it out because doctors can make mistakes. And yest it has affected me personally. Someone that is very close to me was raped and she chose not to abort, but had a miscarriage.
Just because your mother is a doctor doesn’t make you qualified to make decisions for someone else. And just because you know someone who has been raped and kept the child doesn’t mean you have the right to make decisions for someone else. And just because someone goes to church and gets told that their god says abortion is wrong doesn’t mean you have the right to make a decision for someone else. This is the fundamental thing. It is NO ONE else’s business but that of the woman and her doctor (and the spouse or partner when one is involved.)
They can become Jewish, the Jews allow abortion (in some cases)
First of all, I am not religious. Secondly, I am not making decisions for people at all; I am stating my opinion. Thirdly, it is women who deny a the mans responsibility in the pregnancy that cause all these men to not take responsibility for their actions. Men should have some say in whether the pregnancy gets terminated. Otherwise, you are leaving out a vital half of the equation. I do agree that under extreme circumstances that the pregnancy should be aborted. Such as pop-up births. Where both the mother and the fetus will die if development continues. But that fails to fall under the category of abortion. The abortion we are discussing is the needless murder of a fetus because a woman is not willing to accept her responsibility. And yes, men do have responsibility too, and I believe that a woman’s failure to allow men to have any responsibility is why these men refuse to accept their own. It is a vicious cycle. I truly believe that if a doctor tells a woman that their is a possibility of the fetus surviving, then she should not terminate the pregnancy.
Wow, you’re just an expert on the subject, aren’t you? Wife that’s depressed over a miscarriage, friend that’s been raped and chose to keep the baby, mother who’s a gynecologist…very convenient.
Not convenient. True. And I can understand your skepticism. But nonetheless, true. Honestly, if I was unable to make my argument without making things up, I would not attempt to make my argument at all. There would be no point. Because I would know that it holds no validity.
I have yet to see how your acquaintances invalidate a woman’s right over her own body.
It is not your business … how can you pontificate on this woman’s sadness for your own end? She made the choice that was best for her. That is all you need to know.
You are missing the point. Its not about the woman. It is about the child.
the child would not have survived, how about a little compassion?
“Their responsibility as a lifebearer”? Where do you scrape up this pablum? You don’t have some sort of genetic responsibility to carry to term any pregnancy a man shoves on you, merely because you’re female. You don’t have some cosmic RESPONSIBILITY AS A LIFEBEARER. Do you live in a Chick Tract?
How many breasts to the women on your planet have?
I have to agree with the person who was saying that Lifebearer sounds like a video game character class.
Go cling to your guns and religion.
God bless you (POW!)!
Oh for god’s sake, we KNOW he was a POW …
Getting an abortion doesn’t make you a “Liberal.”
Saying publicly that if your daughter got pregnant as the result of a rape, you would make her have the baby doesn’t make you a “Conservative.” It just makes you a Fundamentalist nut job and a bad mother.
No one has the right to take away a life. No matter how it was conceived. It is
still a life.
Isn’t it funny that the forced-pregnancy crowd is almost always okay with capital punishment, (and of course, every war suggested to them), and pro-choice people are almost always against capital punishment?
Even though I’m pro-choice, I always thought it was funny.
Sorry, I don’t see a bunch of cells as life.
You’re aware that you’re a bunch of cells, right?
A conscious, sentient bunch of cells.
Strictly speaking, the word “sentient” refers to self-awareness, which does not occur until about age 3. So it should be okay to kill off a toddler if it’s being an inconvenience? Or a Parkinson’s patient? Or a mentally handicapped person? Or your dog? It’s not self-aware, so it’s okay.
Er… I hope you know that you’re a bunch of cells.
According to many here, since you’re a bunch of cells you’re worthless
and I can kill you.
So is a tapeworm, are you going to make me carry that?
Also do you eat meat? Just curious, since ya know, you don’t have the right to take life away.
A Tapeworm is not a Human Being because it has a different genetic structure
than that of a Human Being (guess what… it has a genetic structure of a
tapeworm).
On the other hand, even a single-celled human zygote has the full genetic structure of a human being which makes him/her a human being with one cell.
Are you prepared to discriminate between human beings of different ages?
Not all people believe that life starts at the same time, some believe it starts at conception and some believe it starts at birth, and even some believe it happens later.
My question is, what about women who otherwise would die if they brought a baby to term, because their bodies cannot handle pregnancy or childbirth. The baby and mother will most likely die. Should they both die or should the mother be able to live her life?
Lets debate about fetal reduction. Women get implanted with multiple “babies” and then when too many of them implant they “reduce” 3 to 2 or 2 to 1. That’s just as bad as abortion isn’t it?
Some believe it starts at quickening – 40 days. That’s in yer bible folks.
You’re going to have to reference that, hehe
Nope, if you are that curious you can look it up. I am done with my bible reading days.
Does our military have the right to take away a life? Do you support capital punishment?
The “abortion” debate is really just a debate about when “human life” begins. Everyone agrees that when a baby is born, it is clearly a living being. I’d guess that everyone will also agree that if the fetus could survive on it’s own then it can be considered a living being. The gray area is the time between conception and the third term. The Supreme Court, in Roe v Wade, chose the end of the first trimester as middle-ground cut-off point.
Whether the zygote, embryo or fetus is a human life during this period is not conclusively proven by science and is merely a philosophical debate. If you choose religion as your philosophy, that’s fine, but you’re not allowed to pass laws based on your religion.
If you want more religion in government, move to Iran.
Zing.
Also, 20 weeks is the earliest a fetus can potentially (with a great many God-playing machines) survive outside the womb.
A physical anthropology professor I knew was asked the following questions. His replies are in quotes:
When does life begin? “At conception”
When does the fetus become human? “One year”
When is the fetus capable of living independently? “Eighteen years”
THINK PEOPLE. It’s more complicated than you so-called pro-lifers are making it.
Dont you think that maybe these ages are socially defined instead of biologically defined. Stop using your cultures biases to determine these things.
“Dont you think that maybe these ages are socially defined instead of biologically defined.”
And isn’t it religion considered a culture? Just saying.
I honestly don’t mean to offend, but yeah… Someone just offered their own point of view and it should be treated with respect, not treated like something you want to scrape away from the bottom of your shoe.
Religion is a culture. But we shouldn’t allow it to force social definitions.
“When is the fetus capable of living independently? “Eighteen years” ”
Well, then I have two fetuses that are taking up a lot of time in the bathroom in the mornings, plus eating us out of house and home!! Dayum, a 14 year old fetus sure can put away the pop tarts….
I have a four year old I think has enough energy to run our house and a four month old who is starting to realize his legs might just work. Crazy fetuses and their tricks.
Im not swaying for religion in the government at all. But kudos to you for recognizing that we should be more concerned with the people we are killing in our wars before we should concern ourselves with the lives of unborn children.
Yes, those that are actually conscious and living will always take priority over those that are not yet born and not conscious.
No one has the right to tell me what to do with my life.
P.S. Did you know that babies born at 22 weeks or before aren’t even revived by doctors? This is because of the painfully small chance they have at survival, and, even if they were to survive, they would most likely have severe health problems for the rest of their short lives. So, really, any abortion at or before that date is simply a medical procedure to prevent the development of a baby (you know, a fetus).
The most premature birth (that lived) was at 21 weeks 5 days.
The 22 week thing is based on the hospital policy.
It’s a small mass of cells. The only recourse Fundies have in saying it’s a life is falling back on their book of fairy tales. They cling to the idea that a soul was put into the clump of 16 cells by a sky god, despite having NO scientific basis for the assessment. Which is great for your personal convictions. But where do you get off throwing that puke of a psuedo-reality onto the rest of us? I have no interest in your God, your book, your faith or your freako moral code that gives more respect to a small bit of undifferentiated tissue than it does to a grown, individuated person.
Right, in other words, you are a selfish bastard. We get it. We pity you, but we get it.
Solution: Simple. Go somewhere else. Problem solved.
Abortion is anti-feminist!? The stupidity of your post is sickening… srsly…
Thank you!
On a slightly related note, I’ve seen my first McCain ad on here. Granted it was bi-Partisan, selling for and against shirts, but it’s better than the constant “Have you donated your blood and first born to Obama yet?!” ads.
Well, have you?
You see ads? There’s somebody who doesn’t know about Adblock Plus yet?
You frame it in such a negative way. Think positive.
McCain and Palin support fatherhood rights for child rapists.
ROTFLMAO!!! That’s my new favorite quote!!!
Ha Ha! Awesome.
Victory is yours, and well earned!
That’s the ol’ neo-con spin!! Good work!
I prefer “maverick spin”.
I want to help McCain/Palin win the convicted pedophile vote, even if it means they lose the vote of every female in the country.
I am DeathWyrmNexus and I approve this message.
I agree with you! Everytime I come here these bias people take the fun out of it! Get a life people! A life those aborted babies never had a chance to get!
Yeah, keep your political beliefs off this politics site! You’re ruining this site for the rest of us who want to see…uh…whatever’s left in politics when you take the politics out. Ties?
Oh, gad. I hope not. My 16 year old fetus, upon seeing the tie McCain wore at the debates, “I’m getting sleeeeeppyyyy…” It was mesmerizing, for sure.
Pro-choice is about giving women THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE what to do with their bodies. I thought Feminism was about giving women a CHOICE on how to live their lives, not have it be dictated.
I’m not trying to denounce your opinions. Personally I doubt that I would ever get an abortion myself, but I believe in EQUALITY. The fact that I can CHOOSE to not have an abortion means a world of a difference when compared to it not even being an issue because that aspect of MY body is outside of my control. All women should have the right to CHOOSE, and Palin advocating to take that away from us is a load of bull.
Taking away a woman’s right to choose–that, my friend, IS anti-feminism.
http://feministsforlife.org/
Yeah. Talk about the “tolerant” left.
I think we’re all missing the point – this is not about Palin at all.
It’s about that microphone.
LOOK AT IT. I MEAN SERIOUSLY, LOOK AT IT.
I agree. That microphone is very distracting.
I already made a lol based off that horrible train of thought.
You stole my comment.
Oh lord! Why did you make me look!!
Don’t look to the left honey. No, I’m serious, no t.v. for you if you turn that head.
awkward placement, really awkward with palin in that position.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed the microphone. And Palin seems to be bending at just the right angle to…
I’m so glad that someone else noticed that
Pffft…. ffftt…. BWAAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!!!
okay, so everyones argueing and then…. THE MICROPHONE OH GAWD. I didn’t notice that before…
I just love how senile John McCain looks in all those pics. “Look honey, they have a HotDog stand.”
He sees Obama with the doughnuts and coffee from another post, she’s trying to distract the kid from seeing them.
Meanwhile McCain sees the LOL of Obama eating the hotdog and gets an idea or “bipartisan support”…
Oh my god, after seeing that microphone, my eyes are burning. I really wish I could unsee it.
Does anyone else notice that Palins’ daughter is just perfectly aligned with John McCains’ crotch area and McCain is holding the mic at his crotch area?
Check my lol on it, even I was disturbed by my own thoughts there.
MY EYES! THE GOGGLES! THEY DO NOTHING!
It’s sad how many people actually believe that women have a right to kill babies..
It sad when women don’t get a say in their own bodies
Its sad when women refuse to identify the responsibility they carry as potential life bearers.
It’s sad when you try and force your beliefs on others.
It’s sad how many time “It’s sad” has been used in this post.
It’s sad that you would say that.
It’s sad that I’m not sad.
It’s sad that everyone else is sad.
I’m sad that this thread exists.
That is not my sole role in life and to tell me that I am only a baby maker is demeaning and rude.
Also, what about the women who are infertile? Are they also “refusing to identify with their responsibility”? Are you implying that they are somewhat less of a person because they can’t provide you with crotchdroppings?
Crotchfruit! Fleshloaves!
Crotchdroppings…I’m going to have to remember that one.
It’s sad when people refer to babies as crotchdroppings.
How about f*ck trophies? Does that make you less sad?
Is that what your mom called you?
Well, now we’ve established what level you’re operating on. And that’s the saddest thing of all.
“Potential Life Bearers”!! This is a bunch of spiritual hooey. Don’t tell me you aren’t trying to impose your religion on other people. You are.
We are women, not female farm animals.
I never said that. I never meant for you to draw that implication too. I am women are people as well as men. We are equal, but women do have the capability unlike men to carry life.
Your comments so far are only about women being valued as breeding stock. Who cares if their lives are already ruined by rape. Who cares if their mental stabiolity is at stake.
How about the mothers that have the baby and throw them in dumpsters? They didn’t have abortions so is that ok?
How about mothers so doped up they forget to feed the baby? That OK?
How about that woman that locked her baby in the trunk of the car and drove around for a month with it dead? All fine right?
Maybe the woman that kept her toddler in a dog kennel and beat it when it cried for food?
Hey, no abortions there! YAY!
Pro-lifers often are so caught up in the unborn that they don’t see the awful things happening to babies that have been born. You want to save lives? Save some of them.
So your approach is. The children are going to die so lets kill them anyways? What kind of sadist remark is that? Stop to think. Maybe institutions can be taken into place. And yes I agree that there is nothing that we can do to stop this. But as a species it is in our greatest interest to reproduce. But killing babies to prevent the murder of babies? On what planet does that make sense? I have dealt with rape victims. And yes they can learn to get over it. No, the flashbacks never go away. But I know from first hand experience that they can live genuinely happy lives. Just because the woman is suffering, doesn’t mean you should punish the fetus.
Just because you want the fetus in the world doesn’t mean the woman should suffer. You are also missing the point that as a species, it is not our best interest to reproduce right now. Ever hear of overpopulation? You know, that crazy science stuff you have been ignoring…
It is sad when women get raped and are forced to carry the baby.
There’s no good reason to punish the child for the father’s crime. In my opinion rapists, not their children, should get the death penalty.
And I feel it is wrong to punish the women for the father’s crime either. She didn’t have a choice and now you believe she should endure pregnancy for nine months while passing along the genes of the man who raped her. That is some sick thinking you have there…
Nine months of a life or a whole life?
The whole life of the woman who is suffering. That’s my choice. I won’t sacrifice her for your ideals.
Please don’t criticize people’s religions, but others should also refrain from using their religion as an excuse for any action. People should just realize that abortion is wrong because it is immoral to take life away under any circumstances. I personally do not believe in any higher power, but when people take on the perspective that you do; that if God existed why doesn’t he control these horrible outrages, they neglect the fact that people are responsible for these outrages and that people can also help solve these problems as well.
Then I guess you’re vegan that wears no leather. I’m also guessing that you wear no jewelry, your energy doesn’t come from coal or petroleum, that you never use any sort of pesticide, or herbicide and that you eat your vegetables while they are still rooted in the ground (pulling them from their roots is, essentially, killing them). And let’s not get into hygiene, medications and antibiotics.
Or are you of the mind that the only life that is truly sacred is that of the hairless ape? Surely you can’t be standing there on your soap box preaching about how killing is wrong in all cases when you’re cutting into a nice thick steak that’s been cooked to kill off bacteria and nibbling on steamed vegetables that have been cut from their life source. No, not you. That would be half assing it.
What any woman does with her body is her business. Whether she is pro-life or pro-choice is no one’s business but her own. The day a man squeezes a baby out their little pee holes is the day a man can tell me when I can and can not have a baby.
Thats just it, its not your body. Its the child’s body. You are neglecting to think about the child and are only thinking of yourself.
So an embryo has more rights than a woman?
Yes, just as many rights as a woman does. Just because they cannot protest against being murdered doesn’t mean they should be. Comatose patients cannot protest, but that does not mean they do not want to die.
You can’t murder an embryo. Murder is the unlawful killing of a PERSON. An embryo is NOT a person.
This is really the source of most of the controversy. If someone believes that an embryo is not a person, then that someone is probably pro-choice. If someone believes that an embryo is a person, then that someone is probably pro-life.
I would say that you CAN murder an embryo because an embryo IS a person, but you are still entitled to your opinion.
The legal definition of an embryo agrees with my opinion.
wow…but there is a difference between can and may. Globally, people kill people all the time. So I see your point. But people must recognize that it is a reprehensible act. embryo’s are so much more than people: they are potentioal people. That means that they can be anything. And don’t you think everybody deserves a fair chance. I mean, how would you feel if your parents decided they didn’t want you so they aborted you? You wouldn’t because you wouldn’t exist.
Actually I wouldn’t know the difference if I didn’t exist. This is because… I wouldn’t exist. Therefore I can’t have an opinion about something I can’t comprehend and neither can anybody else.
Also, your argument that potential people are worth more than already existing people is flawed since they are literally less than people. Also the chance they are the next Hitler is equal the chance that they are the next Gandhi. It is also highly probable that they are just another bob in the world. Let’s not play dice with people’s lives.
You have the right to kill an intruder and have right to protect your body. If the embryo is seen as invasive, it can be removed legally since that it what it is at the time.
Embryos are not intruders; they are invited guests. By deciding to have sex, a woman takes the risk of getting pregnant, and it is therefore her responsibility to care for the child (this responsibility is also shared by the father, but he seldom holds up his end of the deal). Using your analogy, abortion would be like inviting someone to your home and then, after they get there, changing your mind, declaring them an intruder, and killing them.
By having doors and windows in your house, you are inviting intruders. By having material possessions, you are inviting thieves. By letting others look at you, you are inviting rape.
–
Using your analogy, abortion is like, you invite someone over for a party, they bring their elderly relative on a respirator and feeding tube, and they leave them there claiming that by inviting the person, you agreed to take care of the elderly relative. So you remove the feeding tube, and the old person dies because their body isn’t capable of supporting itself and you aren’t required to be their slave.
The mother and the child both have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we allow mothers to deprive children of their lives simply because they are in the way of the mothers’ happiness, then there is no reason to prevent anyone from running around killing people just because it makes them happy. If the woman has more rights than the embryo (as you seem to be implying), then either our system of law and order falls apart, or we have an inconsistent set of laws with a double standard. It doesn’t make me happy that we have the latter, but I suppose it’s better than the former.
Abortion leads to anarchy. Ooookay…
Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. Abortion only leads to anarchy if people see embryos as people, and then only if the people want a just legal system.
I have yet to see abortion lead to anarchy since we already have it. We are very far from anarchy. Go to Somalia and experience anarchy, then come back.
Wrong. No society in the history of humanity has ever forbidden killing completely. Society always reserves the right to kill to protect itself, whether in the form of execution or war. The question is as it always has been, does the evil of killing outweigh the good? Unwanted children make poor citizens, and are more likely to commit crimes. Notice, the crime rate started to plummet exactly eighteen years after Roe v. Wade. Forbidden abortion damages society. Whether society is justified in killing fetuses is the question, not whether fetuses are alive.
–
In war, the innocent are killed. So too with capital punishment, as justice is never perfect. Do not pretend like our society has any qualms against killing the innocent when it benefits our society. The only self-consistent position to take is to be against all killing whatsoever. That includes killing animals and plants. If you kill anything in order to survive and prosper, who are you to say that others may not?
Precisely, thank you!
Not really, we are choosing the potential over a person which is flawed since the person is already here. Also, we are putting the child in a bad situation where they are unwanted. I didn’t ask to be born. Nobody asked if I wanted to be here. Since abortion is forcing a choice on the embryo, wouldn’t having the child also force a choice on the embryo?
So I should be compensated for the fact that I was never consulted on whether or not I want to be here. Since you are saying my rights outweigh my mother’s who had to endure to bring me here.
I am sorry, please inflict your financial responsibilities onto yourself and not try to imply what responsibilities another should take.
F*ck you Gabe. It was MY body and MY choice to have my children. If you want to be a mother so badly, have a sex change operation and get pregnant yourself.
But whose body is it within you? I want you to go tell your children. “You know if I wanted, mommy would have gotten an abortion and you wouldn’t exist.” Its not your choice to take life. Its not morally acceptable. And by your justification, conjoined twins have the right to kill the other person they are attached to just because its their body?
You keep on confusing killing a conscious, sentient person with killing an embryo. They aren’t the same thing. Period.
When you have a mother’s responsibility, then you may decide what a mother’s choice should and shouldn’t be. Since you do not, you lack the understanding to make that choice for another.
As for the body within, there isn’t a body, that is a cluster of cells for a decent number of weeks.
If you wish to save the embryos so much, then take them into yourself and house them instead of insisting what others must do.
I understand the argument you are making, but I disagree. A person doesn’t have to be a mother to understand that killing an embryo is wrong. That’s a pretty easy concept to grasp.
There is a religious group in India, the Jains. They believe all life is sacred. They only eat what is given to them, wear masks to prevent inhaling bugs and microbes, go naked everywhere so no plants or animals need be harmed to clothe them, and sweep the ground in front of them to prevent trampling of other life.
–
How would you feel if they forced this behavior onto you? After all, their moral system is just as valid as yours. In their eyes, you are committing murder every day. Does their belief that you are a murderer make you one?
This type of argument will quickly lead to a discussion of moral relativism versus moral absolutism, which really never goes anywhere.
I’m going to say that the Jains have a very interesting code of morality, but it isn’t the correct one. Their morality isn’t as valid because it is incorrect. Yes, my worldview may be very closed-minded, but at least it’s correct.
And I also love to see when people abandon reason and begin with the personal insults.
You were the one stating about survival of the fittest. The woman is the fittest, period. There is your explanation in your own terms.
There is one difference between your criticisms and the issue at hand: One is necessary for life the other is not. Giving and taking life should only fall under the command of survival of the fittest. That is, as it applies between species, not within.
This would be religion masquerading as science…
Who said this has anything to do with these mythologies you continue to refer to?
It is just based on a personal set of convictions. I am not christian. In fact, I do not worship a deity at all. Like I’ve said before, just because the media tells you I should be religious or any of these things doesn’t mean I am.
LOL!
Survival of the fittest.
Good, now you gone and done it.
why dont you go and get some terminal disease, and die from it since it is more fit to survive than you? Remember, medicine is cheating.
Not cheating. We have evolved to develop critical thinking abilities that allow us to develop these medicines which allow us to rise above these diseases.
You do realise that many male carnivorous/omnivorous pack animals will kill the offspring of a rival or defeated alpha to ensure that only their offspring survive. That would be intraspecie murder. Which, by your standards, is wrong. Which would make everything else in nature wrong (like animals leaving behind wounded or sick members of their pack, or allowing the runts of a litter to die, how some birds intentionally kill their offspring so that their stronger ones survive). Hop off your soap box, turn off the computer, go to your local library and read something other than science fiction.
Yes, but are humans ever ever in that situation?
I do believe that humans are in life or death situations all the time as a society. Don’t cite science and then back away from it if you can’t stand by your examples. We aren’t saying that every baby should die, we are saying that removing choice only ensures that more people die needlessly.
Completely respect your opinion on this issue but there’s something that I can’t understand about some of the pro-lifers supporting McCain-Palin. I see that argument a lot that the women just need to be more responsible (and I completely agree that it’s horrible when I see reckless females AND males behaving irresponsibly and then not owning up to the consequences, not just with this issue but in all aspects in life). But what I don’t understand about McCain-Palin is that not only are they pro-life but they (at least Palin) support abstinence only being taught in schools which honestly I don’t think works well at all. And here is where this gets personal to me, McCain has voted AGAINST requiring insurance companies to cover birth control. How is teaching abstinence only and making it harder for people to get birth control going to help people make responsible decisions so that they are never in a position to even consider abortion/adoption? Limiting access to birth control/contraceptives doesn’t just effect “teens with raging hormones” it effects responsible women like myself who are trying to prevent pregnancy until they feel they are in a financial and emotional place where they can give that child the best life they can. It effects even married couples who are already supporting their children comfortably and one more would put them under right now. I can understand why someone would be pro-life but I cannot understand how they can support someone who is trying to make it harder to PREVENT pregnancy.
You say it’s immoral to take a life under any circumstances, but that is your opinion, because morality is a grey area. Morality is defined as the generally-accepted principles of what is right and just within a society. Generally-accepted means that the majority of the people would agree. So if abortion is still legal in the US despite all the pro-lifers trying for decades to do away with it, doesn’t that make abortion MORAL???
It’s never been put to a vote that I know of.
So… if morality is defined as the generally-accepted principles of what is right and just within a society… Then it was OK fore… Nazi Germany to kill 11 million people, because the majority said so…
Finally! Someone who sees it my way! I also was pro-choice. I advocated giving the officers at my work camps the choice to abort children of undesirables. This has been one of my greatest legacies that I successfully exported to the United States. I died, but my pro-choice views live on.
The wrong people made that choice. I believe it is the choice of the parents, particularly the potential mother, as to whether their foetus should become their child. But I also draw the line at half-term. Beyond that, modern medicine can potentially keep that child alive outside the womb, indicating that it truly is its own being.
I understand that some ‘pro-choice’ people would still disagree with me
here, but I’ve made my opinion clear and I’m sticking to it.
I agree with you PiMan. There comes a point in pregnancy when you know there is a life in you. It isn’t in the first trimester – the baby is still just an idea you are gettin gused to and, for some women, throwing up about. It is at about 5 months that you start to feel the baby moving and then you KNOW. It’s truly remarkable and I remember watching my now 14 year old son lying on the bed when we got home; he kicked and I actually felt it inside me – even though he wasn’t anymore.
Reich Central Office to Combat Abortion and Homosexuality – Founded by Himmler, 1936.
Also, it shouldn’t normally need pointing out, but seeing as you appear to be educationally subnormal forced abortions is not pro-choice. That aspect of Hitler’s policy was about taking the decision away from the woman who was pregnant, just like Sarah Palin wants to.
No, it just makes for a society with conflicting values.
Could you please stop refering to woman as life bearers like we magically make babies all by ourselves… We just got the short end of the straws. And using the word responsibility towards the woman and not the man is not flying. Men seem to decide whether the child exists (to them) by staying or walking so there should be no double standards here. Either the woman should also have that choice or men should take responsibiltiy. Unfortuneatly life is a bitch. Deal with it. The only good thing is that everyone has freedom to make these decisions and we’ll have to be thankful for that.
Oh and about that photo.. the only thing I could see was the microphone!!lol!!
I’ve heard it said that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a holy sacrament.
I never said men shouldn’t take the responsibility, and I do agree that women have gotten a the short end of the stick. But that doesn’t mean that women should outright reject any responsibility they hold towards bearing a child.
You have a responsiblity to support every living human on earth. If anyone dies through your inaction, it is your fault. I expect you to eat only what is given to you while any single person is hungry, to wear only what is given to you while anyone lacks clothes, and to have no home while anyone does not. You must work entirely to support others with all of your ability. Otherwise, when anyone dies and you could have prevented it by supporting them, you have committed the moral equivalent of abortion. You are the life-bearer who must support all other life, no matter his personal opinion on the subject. We’ll make it a law so you have no say.
–
If you won’t accept that, don’t ask others to.
It would not be possible for me to take on that kind of responsibility. But mothers can at least take on the responsibility of something that is much more immediate to them.
Yeah, I hate abortion almost as much as I hate deadbeat dads, so that argument doesn’t hold water for me. But the fact is, “rape or incest” is a tiny fraction of unwanted pregnancy, the health of the mother is /never/ an issue (if the mother is unhealthy, the pregnancy will terminate first). The vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are the result of irresponsibility, pure and simple, and if you want to justify murder out of convenience, then we should stop prosecuting mothers for drowning their children.
. . . Lol. The pregnancy will terminate if the mother’s health is at risk? Then why do women die during childbirth?
Meanwhile, there is a difference between holding a living human being in your hands and forcing its head underwater and having a doctor remove a circular parasite with no emotion, thought, will or desire from your uterus before it can BECOME that living human being.
Wow are you naive. There are plenty of medical cases where pregnancy put the mother’s life at risk and abortion is often done to save her life (look up pre-eclampsia for starters). There are also plenty of other cases where the mother develops cancer or other serious conditions during her pregnancy and has to get an abortion in order to get anticancer or other treatments that would otherwise destroy the fetus.
I’m sorry, but if I don’t see a well thought out and legitimately funny dig on Obama on this site in the next week or so, I’m never looking at this page again.
Sorry, he’s just not funny like that. Can’t you be happy with not-thought-out digs like “Obama bin Biden”? Palin and McCain practically mock themselves.
It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
But what else are you going to do with a barrel of fish?
Sounds like you’re saying that conservatives are just easier to make fun of?
Well, they just provide more material.
Yes. Can you argue that Biden is easier to make fun of than Palin?
You should never do a pity LOL on Biden. He’s silly enough on his own without our help. The poor man can’t open his mouth without stupid falling out
Making a LOL on him would be like shooting baby deer.
We would have seen something but we haven’t. Biden is too uninteresting to laugh at.
That too.
Oh, I disagree. There’s plenty of hilarious things about Biden. But yeah, it would be a lot like shooting a baby deer.
Well then, turn your words into action. If we don’t see a Biden LOL within the next few days, we’ll know you’ve failed.
Yep.
And nothing of value was lost.
Write one, Phil! This web site gives you step-by-step directions.
If it is good, I will be LMAO.
If you think for yourself, you can see the humor in all sorts of things…
Oh c’mon, I despise what Palin believes in as much as anyone but isn’t she progressing things for women to a degree. I mean shouldn’t a woman have the right to believe that abortion should not be allowed or that people have rights to guns. I disagree with both those things (to a degree) but why do women have to choose liberal ideals in order to believe in women’s ‘rights’; shouldn’t they be able to be their own person without losing their identity as a woman?
I think the argument would be that the two women’s rights that you mention aren’t uniquely female, where the decision to stay pregnant or not is a uniquely female choice.
Just for fun, if women have the right to decide if their fetus is not allowed to mature, why don’t men? They helped create it. Why don’t they get a say in the matter? Thinking of child birth as a strictly female act is absurd as it negates one important half of the equation.
Men can force a pregnancy to go to term when science gives them their own damn wombs.
Oh cmon, thats asinine. Men having a say in a woman’s pregnancy is just another way for men to try to subjugate women. By that argument if you want to have sex with a woman and she doesn’t want to, you should have the right to decide for the both of you because she doesn’t agree with you and therefore she needs a man to step in and set her straight. Go read Alec Baldwin’s book, you’d probably like the chauvinist bullshit it’s filled with.
I misunderstood this post at first as well. I think what wut’s trying to say is, “Men can tell women what to do with their bodies only when they themselves have the experience.” But hey, if the man has a womb too, why not make him carry the kid?
You can call yourself whatever you want. But if you agree with the liberals’ stances on abortion/choice, gun control, etc. then you’re a liberal, by definition. If you agree with the conservatives’ stances on those issues, then you’re a conservative, by definition. If you can pick-and-choose your view points and share some with each group, then you’re a centrist/independent.
You can of course be a liberal who doesn’t believe in abortion for herself, but if you impose your belief on others, then you’re in the conservative camp.
Ok Koki Kariya was saying palin doesn’t have to be liberal to be a woman. She was not trying to impose any belief(unlike you) on anyone.
Well technically he, but you got the gist of the rest. And yeah, I am a liberal and still I am actually putting up the argument that just because Palin isn’t a liberal doesn’t mean she hates women, she just doesn’t fit the feminist mold.
Look into her rape policies – She is anti-woman
She isn’t moving anything ahead for women. Or for anyone else. She is in the Dark Ages, and she wants to drag us all back there with her.
That’s just stupid Irrational Redneck a women in the White house IS moving things forward for woman.
If she were Hillary. And you need to support your argument by calling someone names?
So cliche.
Recaption: “Oh, honey, Mr. Cheney didn’t mean to knock you up.”
NO
Super funny… and also really sad that it is true. :/
Ok I’ve tried to post this damn comment 6 times. Once more, in multiple posts.
POST #1:
“KH: Well then keep your legs closed. and/or don’t put yourself in stupid situations. and/or just let God be in control with what He’s doing.”
MY GOD YOU’RE RIGHT! I never thought of it that way.
Like getting raped. Now what kind of dumb bitch would let herself get
into that “stupid situation”? Or being addicted to drugs while pregnant? Or simply being unable to care for the child?
A bunch of guys should gang rape Palin. With lots of anal raping.
Right after they do you.
Can you feel the LOVE in here ? I wonder what they would say if Pailin was a Democrat ?
I know, I know….
” DON”T YOU DARE MAKE FUN OF HER, YOU BRAINLESS REPUGS ! WAAAHHH!!! >o<
No, it would be more like “It’s shameless how these chauvanists are marginalizing a strong, intelligent, independent woman in an effort to destroy women everywhere and maintain the glass ceiling in order to keep their patriarchal system in place.”
Or something like that.
Ya.. your pro-woman’s Rights…
Could you not post stupid crap like that? You make the rest of us look bad.
It’s quite odd to me that the argument is over whether or not women have a “right” to kill their unborn child. This is a “right” that was created out of thin air on the basis of an outright lie. And the people that argue in support of this “right” are often the most vocal against a right that is specifically protected by the second amendment to the Constitution. They will often argue that those that reject Roe vs Wade as bad judicially are being hypocritical because of their support for the death penalty. But as I see it, there is no hypocrisy, because of the little matter of due process. In a capitol case, where the death penalty may be invoked, the accused is allowed legal representation, may face their accusers and cross-examine them, and are allowed automatic appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court. Yet the unborn are denied the right of due process. Their mother, and her doctor, are judge, jury, and executioner, and the crime for which they are put to death is that of merely existing. So sad that 39,290,477 *people* have been executed since 1973 just for being an “inconvenience”….
Look, dolt. There is no question that a woman can terminate her pregnancy if that’s what she wants. Abortions still happened when the practice was illegal, it just involved back-alley doctors or wire coat hangers. Many women died due to these conditions.
Keeping abortion legal provides for making this process safe. Maybe you think that these women deserve to die for their “crime”, but if so then that’s a function of your twisted moral compass, and it’s not up to you regardless.
That was a helluva nice knee-jerk reaction you had there, lib!!
Since Roe vs. Wade, approximately 20 million women have lost their lives due to “safe” abortions.
If you want to play the numbers and statistics game, it was found that crime nationwide dropped when the Roe v Wade generation would have hit the age group that commits the most offenses. The drop in crime due to Roe v Wade is further supported by several states who had legalized abortion 4 years before Roe v Wade. These states saw exactly the same drop in crime that was experienced by the rest of the country, only four years earlier, the same year they legalized abortion.
Just some food for thought. You can resume your flame wars now. I’m not naive enough to think this is going to change anyone’s mind.
Source: Freakonomics
Evidence plz. kthxbai.
I believe that “Prolife” is claiming that half of all the embryos and fetuses that have been aborted qualify as “women.” Even though many of those embryos and fetuses did not display any phenotypical sex characteristics yet.
An embryo is NOT a person in any legal sense of the word and therefore CANNOT be executed. Try again.
The unborn were made to be non-persons *solely by judicial fiat*. You know who else made an entire group, well, actually several entire groups of people into non-persons just so they could justify killing them for racist and other immoral reasons?
Prolife, please describe the “outright lie” you refer to, and what the 2nd amendment has to do with it. I don’t understand where you’re coming from.
The unborn are what they are, fiat or not. Please provide evidence that first-term embryos are sentient human beings.
Also, please provide evidence that “20 million women have lost their lives due to ’safe’ abortions.” Specifically, prove that they would have all been born alive, and that their parents could have supported them (or, alternately, that there was someone waiting to adopt them, including those who would have been born horribly disfigured or retarded or with Down or etc).
Also, Godwin FAIL.
Yep, you know you can’t argue against the legal definition so you go that route. Here, I’ll call Godwin’s right now and spare you from typing out the rest of your bullshlt.
Obviously you haven’t actually read Roe v. Wade. Here’s the simple version: abortion is sometimes medically necessary. Whether or not it is medically necessary is a decision best left to the doctor and the patient, rather than to a judge or a politician. It’s ultimately a question of personal liberty: I have the right to decide what happens to my body, even if someone else dies as a consequence of that decision. It’s the same reason we don’t have forced organ donation. If I decide that nobody else can have my blood or corneas or kidneys when I’m dead, then that’s that. People may die or live in blindness, but my decision about my body is paramount and inviolable. (Unless I’m a woman, then I don’t have the rights given to a cadaver.)
Nice microphone placement!
My whole hang up on it is the “when life begins” argument. If scientists consider bacteria and single cell organisms life, wouldn’t a fertilized egg be life too? Therefore life begins at conception, well…technically if you consider single cells life, it starts before. Anyway…
I have never like the whole abortion thing. I have only two exceptions, rape and danger to the mother.
I usually stay out of these discussions, on the simple fact I don’t have that type of plumbing and have no personal experience in the matter.
“Wouldn’t a fertilized egg be life too?”
Irrelevant, the point is if it’s human life. Unless you think killing bacteria should land you on a murder charge?
He/She is a human life because he/she has the genetic structure of a human being.
A bacterium is not a human being because it has a (very) different genetic structure than that of a human being.
Yes, bacteria etc are life. But there’s a difference between them and fertilized eggs- they don’t need outside support to survive, to find food, to reproduce themselves.
I like abortion. I have them as often as possible… if I bored, I think… HEY! I know! ABORTION TIME!!! It really livens up my day.
Hello, Abortion rights are not the only rights she is trying to take away from women!!
McCain and Palin are also against “Equal Pay for Equal Work”, they think it will result in frivolous lawsuits. (Since when is justice frivolous?)
Also when she was Mayor of Wasilla, the town instituted a practice where by they would CHARGE women for the medical procedures to collect the evidence to catch their rapists. (the “rape-kits” cost anywhere from 300 to 1000 dollars, yeah that what you need just after you’ve been raped, a bill for collection of evidence) Palin’s excuse for allowing this, “She didn’t want to burden the tax payers” … excuse me? Yeah, let’s not burden the tax payers with keeping those pesky rapists off the streets, that should be the responsibility of the victims right?
Heh, can I post this discussion on failblog with the caption “relevance fail?”
It happens. A lot.
I believe it’s called “politics”.
Those who are anti-abortion, seem to be pro-fertility treatments. I find that interesting. Since abortion is against God’s will, isn’t forcefully creating a baby in the womb of a woman that God has decided CAN’T have children against all that is natural? Not that I am against fertility treatments, but are all these infertile women going to start adopting those babies being born once abortion is made illegal? They are not doing them now. So please do not throw the fallacy of some God in the mix when you all are just as hypocritical as the next.
Oh and let’s not forget what fertility babies end up costing the tax payers when these god-fearing women choose not to reduce their 5 or 6 babies. Millions of dollars. We called them in the NICU, more million dollar babies are taxes are paying for. FACT.
Typical hate post. Try doing some satire on Obama sometime instead of the ass-kissing this site features.
dear god…another anti-sarah palin thing…i’m sick of these as well as the anti-obama ones as well…for starters, STOP goin after palin…as a VP candidate, what does she do? yeah, nothing…and VP’s do nothing even in the white house…so if ur gonna make attacks on the republican’s take it out on mccain…also…i think its a dirty trick for the Mccain campaign to bring in Obama’s middle name and family and relations (his friends) into the election. If you wanna take him down, go after his record (senate wise) and leave his family and friends alone…god, this election is gonna get nasty….
You’re right, VP doesn’t really do anything. Except serve as President of the Senate with the power to break tie votes, and more importantly, become actual President when John McCain bites it. Did you know he gave the press access to his medical records? Oh yeah, except they couldn’t bring any cameras, notebooks, or pens in. And it was like 1200 pages* long. Palin is a complete and total idiot. She is exactly the kind of person that will do anything to ‘preserve the integrity’ of the country and while doing so, repress every creative and progressive idea that may save the world.
*Yeah this isn’t exact, I don’t recall the number, but it was very very large. Longer than any Harry Potter book lol.
Did you see how McCain had to go with Palin to her second interview with Couric? Daddy’s got to do some damage control! LOL!
I’m sorry, but every time someone says “life bearer” in here, I immediately think, “Oooh! I want that class! It sounds like the kickass version of a white mage!” As you can see, I play far too many RPG video games.
As a result, I simply can’t take Gabe seriously, since I’m thinking a life bearer’s responsibility is to keep the rest of the party alive long enough to beat the boss.
Excellent. Kickass, even!
So your immaturity doesn’t allow you to fairly judge my argument? I wouldn’t parade that information.
I was making a joke. My sense of humor is kind of hard to judge sometimes. But yes, the term does make me think of Final Fantasy. It was kind of an unfortunate turn of phrase.
That said, no need to get personal.
“They’ve got 1.2 billion people, and they don’t know what to do. If every family over there was allowed to have three or four children, the population would be completely unsustainable…. They’re doing what they have to do.” (c) Pat Robertson on the forced abortions in China. In other words, concervatives are ok with State prohibiting abortion, and they are also ok with State forcing abortion, as long as women themselves don’t have a say in the matter. Only important thing to them is to make sure women are treated as a property and not as human beings, all the rest is just so much noice to cover this up.
Pat’s most likely okay with it because it’s non-white, non-Americans having the abortions.
Ah, the good old “when does human life begin” debate. Doesn’t everyone love how we can’t even agree on that most basic feature of the pro-abortion/anti-abortion debate? It’s like arguing what breed a dog is, and then not being able to agree what a dog is. And yet we do it anyways.
Pro: Human Life begins at Birth. Q: How do we know? A1: Um. A2: Religion. A3: Science.
Anti: Human life begins at conception. Q: How do we know? A1: Um. A2: Religion. A3: Science.
Please tell me I’m not the only one loling more at the comments “THESE ARE FACTS AND NOT OPINIONS AT ALL” comments more than the lol itself.
Meanwhile, Obama campaigns under the No Abortion Left Behind banner.
I mean, seriously, I rarely see any anti-Obama pics here, while this anti-Palin garbage shows up all the time. There was one of her family with an arrow pointing to a land mass behind them that said “Russia”. THAT was funny.
This one is just rotten. It SHOULD read, “Not now honey, Mommy’s too busy trying to make sure children like you are given the right to come into existence.”
Liberals must be pretty desperate!
Sometimes I think I’m the only person who sees the irony of these “discussions.”
THE INTERWEBZ: not supporting your right to free speech as much as expected, actually.