God?
God? You there? … …Little help?
(Very Large Array, Socorro, New Mexico)
picture: dunno source, via our lol builder. lol caption: skeptic
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If he’s there, he’s obviously not listening.
Who was it that said “The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that it hasn’t tried to contact us”? I assume the same holds true for the Almighty.
Ah, Calvin an Hobbs can be credited with that one..
I suspect that if such a being exists, he has long since retired or thrown up his hands in despair, and we’re on our own. I can think of no other explanation for the state of the world today.
“That which does not kill us makes us stronger. “?? – Friedrich Nietzsche
“God is dead.” – Nietzche
“Nietzche is dead.” – God
So logically, Nietzche is God.
lol!
“God is dead.” – Nietzche
“Nietzche is dead.” – God
God Pwns Nietzche.
God is Love
Love is Blind
Stevie Wonder is Blind
Stevie Wonder is God
win.
“Good and Nietzche are dead” -Chuck Norris
It’s God not good.
damn keyboard…..
Following your logic:
Ice cream is delicious.
Steak is delicious.
Ice cream is steak.
Fail.
On second thought, I might have to try steak ice cream…
Steak Ice Cream is God.
That would make communion kick ass.
OMGBBQ??!
pretty much.
Note for the humor impaired: the above was posted in jest. Retroactively, I add this smiley:
God still Pwns Nietzche.
lol.
Then I retract my “Fail.” and replace it with an equally playful wink smiley.
I still want to try steak ice cream though…
Then instead of chocolate syrup, you can douse it in A-1!
That’s it.
Next steak I make I’m marinating in chocolate syrup.
Next ice cream I eat, I’m pouring A-1 all over (good call on A-1; there’s really nothing else.)
Well, now if the steak is prepared properly and well, there is no need for anything other than natural juices!!!
Dammit, I’m hungry now.
So put the natural juices of a well prepared steak onto ice cream.
That which did not kind us leave us in the wheelchair
I mean kill, not kind. Darn fingers.
Hasn’t tried to contact us? He sent His son to die for us (after living with, breathing with, speaking to, and teaching us), He wrote an entire book for us (and it’s a hefty one and an interesting read, at that), He still performs miracles through and to us, and He speaks daily to those of us willing to listen and understand.
The failure lies in our poor reception of His communications, rather than in His perceived lack of attempt or ability.
You’re saying God tried to reach us and failed? Kind of pokes a hole in the omnipotence theory doesn’t it?
He didn’t fail – free will is working perfectly, which is why you failed.. DAMN, I failed at not posting back at you anymore!
Well said, bert. God didn’t fail at speaking to us. We failed at listening.
Bull. If an omnipotent being spoke with the intention of being heard, there would be no doubt and no room for debate. Instead, the “faithful” will construct ever more elaborate arguments to explain away the failure. Just accept that your theory doesn’t hold water and adjust your world-view to fit the evidence.
If God walked into a room, sat down with someone and shook their hand and said “Hey! How are ya buddy?”. Then got up and walked out, some people would STILL not believe.
Win.
Wrong. You are saying God is not omnipotent, if he were, he could surely prove to anyone that he was God. Proving to people that he was God would not remove our free will. The God of Christianity is simply too cruel and capricious for me to ever worship, questions of his existence aside. Infinite punishment for finite sin is sick. The existence of sin is sick, he could have given us free will with no possibility of sinning. For instance, I have free will but I can’t flurp, necause flurp is a nonsense word. God could have made ’sin’ a nonsense word, but he chose to make it so that we can sin, and he chose to punish us for what he KNOWS we will do, because he made it so that we will. The Christian God is a sick, sadistic torturer, not a God of love at all. I’m GLAD he doesn’t exist, the thought of living in a universe ruled by such an evil bully is terrifying.
Interesting.
God gave us an existence free of sin – and we still chose disobedience to him (SIN).. try Genesis out.
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“the existence of sin is sick” – sounds like you hate sin… the rest of your post points to you being angry with God and totally frustrated over an inability to keep yourself from sinning (not judging you here, just calling it as I see it)… Another dead giveaway would have to be your references to “The God of Christianity”, and the fact that you hate sin.
Without God, there is no sin, because sin is that which is against God.
You say “I’m GLAD he doesn’t exist”.. but you mean “I’m glad that I can pretend He doesn’t exist, or I would have to be even more upset with myself”
.. I’ll be praying for you.
Genesis contains particularly messed up logic. Before eating the apple, how could we have known that eating the apple was wrong? We didn’t know the difference between good and evil before we ate the apple, right?
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I’m not upset with myself. I don’t sin. There is no sin, except in men’s minds. I make mistakes, but because I do not judge myself, I am not afraid to look at my mistakes and take steps to correct them, unlike Christians, who hide from their own mistakes in ferar of displeasing an imaginary daddy-figure.
He told them not to eat of that tree – try reading the book you’re pissing on sometime….
But without the knowledge of good and bad, which the tree held, how would they know that disobedience was wrong?
O yes, I know he told them not to eat from the tree. But instead of talking with them, nooooo he immidiatly kicked there asses out, not even giving them the chance to tell there side of the story, nothing. That, in my eyes, is harsh. God apperantly also went through quite a midlife crisis between the Old and New Testament, it looks like both books depict a totally different deity. Also, I don’t agree with God’s methods. Instead of coming here himself, he send down his son to do the “dirty work”, suffer horribly and spent a couple of days in hell. I feel friggin’ sorry for Jesus, that his dad did that to him. I call that cowardly, and I do not agree with God’s methods of trying to talk to us.
He just came off of totally destroying all life on Earth (dinos) and re-creating everything… so he was a bit grumpy… besides, when you’re the One True God, you kinda get used to having it YOUR WAY.
That kind of flies in the face of a compassionate and caring God who is all knowing and loving.
Compassionate and caring? OT-God was a complete dick! Take passover for instance. It celebrates a time when God sent an angel to kill all the firstborn children of Egypt. That’s a shade away from genocide, and yet because God did it, there’s a holiday for it. Why are we supposed to applaud behavior in a deity that we would condemn in real life?
And then comes the whole abortion debate…a case of “do as I say, not as I do”?
“Infinite punishment for finite sin is sick.” (Seth) If you paid any Actual attention to the idea of Christianity you would now that by asking God for forgiveness of your sins (and meaning it) you will be forgiven. Despite the fact that he knows we are fallible creatures, and that we are likely to sin again. That is what makes him a “loving” God, his ability to forgive us for our sins. Also, God could have made ’sin’ a nonsense word. But the things that make up sin would still occur. Because God gave us a list of sins, we now that murdering someone is bad, and that stealing is bad.
So Seth, what you are ultimately saying here is you cannot believe in a God who punishes people for doing bad things? Thus you cannot believes in a nation or a government that punishes people for committing crimes. So if we do away with the word “crime” that will do away with humanities ability to do crime? Interesting concept. However, I don’t think I would want to live in a world where someone can kill me and mine and not be punished, whether in this life or the next.
Flurp is a nonsense word, and flurp does not occur. I am not talking about God making sin a nonsense word. I am talking about God creating a Universe where people have free will, but can not do evil, because evil is as impossible to do as flurp is. If God is omnipotent, you have to admit that he COULD have created such a Universe, but chose not to, for some perverted reason.
Maybe he is in the process of creating such a universe?
In which case he is not omnipotent, merely very patient or bored or psychotically disturbed. Unless you want to state that somehow being infinitely power has very limited results.
Why is that? We could just be living inside the process of creation, we could also be active participants. If it is true that God is in us and we are in God as the bible says why would that be so far fetched?
In valid argument. If he made us so that we could not do evil, then we would not have free will.
I certainly do not believe in the God the bible paints, but I do believe in a presence. It’ll be interesting to see whose right when we die. I guess a prudent man or woman would hedge his or her bets…
Ema, you are coming dangerously close to my way of thinking.
“If it is true that God is in us and we are in God as the bible says why would that be so far fetched?”
That would make God our creation and make us God since we are doing the creating. It also means we are punishing ourselves and judging ourselves.
Well, it would just mean we are part of a just universe, a creation we are both a part of and co-creators of, although I think some of the rules are preset and as we live and grow within them.
seth, how can a person have free will if they are not able to choose? if you can not choose to disobey then you can not have free will. God told us what would happen before we even came to this earth, and we chose to come here.
Before Christ came to the earth there was no mercy, and without mercy there would would have been no salvation. Christ chose to come to Earth and fulfill his fathers plan so that we could have mercy and return to him.
umm…. what? So in the previous, what, 10,000 years of human existence, there were no chronicled instances of compassion or mercy? And does that merely apply to select areas of the Middle East, or are we talking globally with this shit?
And am I supposed to interpret the Old Testament metaphorically and the New Testament literally? Or is it the other way around? Or are they both allegories of existence and attempts at constructing functional societies? Or is it all literal and we are facing some SERIOUS reductions in human lifespan and celestial visitation? And for any and all these, did the Jewish people offer God a discounted rate at dissemination of his Word making them originally the exclusive brokers of Truth™, thus precluding establishment/dissemination of franchised texts in other major civilized areas of the world, such as Africa, Europe and Asia?
Ah, Theology….
filler, i am not talking about the mortal race but what was to come after at the judgement seat. If Christ had not died on the cross for us then there would have been no mercy for us in the afterlife.
So you’re saying that no Jewish person has ever gone to heaven? Even before Jesus’ time?
In your world view, you DO live in a world where someone can kill you and yours and not be punished. All they have to do is ask God for forgivenessd for killing you, and there they will be, in heaven, chatting God up and having a good old time, when you get there. Not only that, you will have to spend eternity smiling and happily forgiving your murderer.
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Christianity is a disease that so damages people’s minds, they can’t even see the logical consequences of their own beliefs.
All can be forgiven in Christianity except when you don’t ask for forgiveness. That is unforgivable.
The suicide rule is also iffy. You are not allowed to take your own life because it is God’s to take. However you can murder and be forgiven without qualm.
So assuming that we are sentient after death, why can’t we ask for forgiveness then and mean it?
Not trying to add to your disease talk but I wanted to add that comment.
To be christian is to forgive, As I said if that person asks for
forgiveness and truly means it. Then he deserves to be in
heaven and I would forgive them just as my God would. You
call our God sick and perverted, but he forgives those who sin
and make mistakes if they truly wish to be forgiven. If I
cannot forgive then I would not be a christian and i would be
a poor example to my God. Whats so wrong with forgiving?
Whats so wrong with wanting a world that differentiates between
wrong and write? That’s what sin is. fine flurp is not a word it has no meaning.
what im saying is even if sin were not a word, killing which is a sin,
stealing which is a sin, rape and violence which is a sin would
still happen even if “sin” was not there to define it. You say
this world of sin, does not consist of free will so if he created a world where sin did not happen he would still be taking away our free will. We do not hide from our mistakes we now if we do not ask for forgiveness we will be punished and if we do as for forgiveness and mean it we are acknowledging our sins, we know we did wrong. That is what sin is, it is on par with right and wrong, so we take away sin we take away the ability to tell right from wrong.
The question is if some things are forgivable.
The “Suicide” rule pertains to ‘murdering’ yourself, and not having the chance for forgiveness before death. Now, if you’re in the process of dying from a gaping chest wound, where you shot yourself with a shotgun, and you are truly repentant, I think that would be an acceptable forgiveness from him…
I would like to presume that God would identify itself instead of posing as a random hobo who shakes people’s hand.
Actually, that’s not a bad description of His alleged fleshly exploits.
S
in bed
I prefer Zeus in that regard. He would come down from Olympus and get nine kinds of freaky with whatever babes caught his eye. It never ended well for the girl, but that’s no skin off Zeus’ immortal nose.
Or dude, Zeus wasn’t picky.
Didn’t he tried that with John Denver?
Bull nothing. If an omnipotent being gave it’s creation the ability to NOT hear it speaking, then spoke, the prior condition would cancel the second.
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Don’t mess with me, man, I’m a programmer. LOL
Likewise, and I’ve been at it for a while now.
The fact remains that God ostensibly spoke and was not heard. Therefore omnipotence != true.
God spoke to the Israeli’s in the desert according to the Old Testament and they begged Moses to make him stop! Apparently it was a little bit frightening or unbearable in some way…
God spoke – world became.
God created man with free will including the ability to not listen.
God spoke.
Man didn’t listen.
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Now, maybe I’m dense here, but – what part of that exactly makes Him non-omnipotent?
God spoke – world became.
God created man with free will including the ability to not listen.
God spoke.
Man didn’t listen.
God punishes man for eternity.
That last part is the kicker.
Maybe you should start listening then?
To which god?
The One that will punish you for all eternity if you don’t.
There are many of those.
Which one are you listening to again?
I thought you were trying to tell me?
So we should listen to god because, and only because we feel threatened by what he would do if we didn’t listen to him? Sounds to me like god is a terrorist.
You know there is no point in arguing with the faithful. they have closed their minds. I’m not sure who said it but “if you can’t change your mind are you sure you still have one?” The majority of christians have never read the bible straight through. If they had they wouldn’t be christians. I believe in an all powerful being, but I by no way associate it with the good of the bible. That dude is messed up. But if you argue with the (insert “true believer” of x religion here) they refse to listen to logic. There is no point. Its like arguing with a rock or a wall.
At x-bert and ilk- He’s your god, they are your rules, YOU burn in hell
damn that should be God of the bible. not good
There’s a difference between a closed mind and one that is decided.
Since when is it mandatory to change your mind once you’ve made it?
Is there? Maybe in your mind, but I don’t see a factual difference. Fact is that you will try to divert or bend any logical problem to your own beleives. Even worse, sometimes I see people who deem there own personal beleives more important then reality. That seems to against everything Jesus ever told about truth and stuff.
Just one question – Did I tell any of you jackasses to “Go to Hell” or that you ARE going if you don’t flippin agree with me????? No.
What is actually happening is, much like my ex wife, it’s driving you crazy that I have an ANSWER for anything you want to chuck at me.
.. and..
.. To automatically assume that the ‘faithful’ are closed-minded… IS PRETTY DAMN CLOSED MINDED…
>kthx
It’s not about disagreeing with you, it’s about disagreeing with what you call “God”. We’re cool disagreeing with eachother, that’s tolerance, but what happens when we disagree with what you call “God”.
Minds are like parachutes.
They only function properly when open.
“Parachute for sale. Never opened. Used once. Slight stain.”
My world view adjusted to what it is the first time I read “those who are willing should listen and understand.” It’s a phrase repeated many many times in the bible, and it’s what I’ll stand on here.
Your call of BS stands on the idea that you can limit what God can and cannot, or will and will not do based upon our definitions of what He called Himself in our limited language. And don’t try to rebut that by saying He could have explained Himself more clearly, because while you would be right, He chose not to, making it a worthless argument.
Then he negated his own purpose. This “we cannot comprehend it” stuff is technically possible, but it’s a very flimsy argument for proving anything. If there is indeed a creator, then I am as he created me to be, and I very much doubt his existence. If that’s according to some sort of plan, then it is working beautifully. Let’s be done with this, shall we?
I don’t believe the “we cannot comprehend it” arguement. We can understand it, but we need help – “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14
Wich would again annihilate God’s omnipotence, because apperantly he’s not capable to explain things to us when you don’t have the “Spirit”.
HE explains as he wishes. Why make something easy, would we still listen? probably not. one example in the bible, Jesus told a ruler ( can not remember who) that had lepracy to wash in the euphraties?(sp), the ruler balked because it was a simple thing to do. another, GOD told the isrilites during the time of sending firy serpents to simply look at moses’s staff and they would be healed if bitten, and some refuesed to look because of the simpleness of it. the stuff was written in a different time, they then understood but some did not try to comprehend and follow. now it is harder to understand because we did not live in those times.
Also, the more elaborate arguments people come up with AGAINST God’s existence, the more elaborate believers must get in explaining the same things over and over.
I’ve never seen any convincing evidence for the existence of any gods.
I see no reason to believe in something that has no evidence for its existence.
What evidence do you have for the existence of a god?
What an existence you must have …
an existence for evidence…
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I tire of people who challenge me to prove my God. There is no way to dis-prove my God, therefore I will continue to believe that He exists.
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Believe or disbelieve what you like as you see fit.
Good day.
There’s an invisible purple dragon living in my garage. He likes cheetos.
Prove me wrong.
You can’t? Then the dragon must exist! Run away!
Hint: It is not possible to disprove the existence of something. THat does not mean that that something necessarily exists.
Why run away from an invisible dragon that likes cheetos?
He’s perfectly harmless to humans apparently – for one, you still exist although he lives in your garage.. for two – he likes CHEETOS, not human flesh.
Hint: If it is not possible to disprove somethings existence, will you please explain to the atheists that there’s a problem with their disbelief system?
There’s also a problem with the disbelief system of those that don’t believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus, and the easter bunny. Also, FSM.
Nice way to ignore the invisible dragon in the room.
No atheist that I’m aware of thinks it is possible to disprove the existence of a god. Just like it’s impossible to prove that fairies and trolls and unicorns and invisible dragons don’t exist.
I have never seen convincing evidence that fairies or unicorns exist, so I see no reason to live my life as if they do exist.
Same thing with gods.
Because for making that choice you’re deemed to eternal suffering and pain? So you have free will, but if you don’t make the choice God wants you to make, he’ll doom you for eternity. That’s áwfull, it looks like an 8 year old playing The Sims. And I should accept a being like that as morally perfect?
x-bert, how did you reply with another layer in the thread? Pundit Kitchen is limited to ten layers.
God moves x-bert’s posts in mysterious ways!
My arguments. Let me show you them.
a) If we consider God to be omnipotent and omniscient, He is therefore and entity of infinite complexity. The universe, on the other hand, has a finite complexity. God is far more unlikely to exist or spontaneously appear than the universe by itself.
b) If God is omniscient, that means God already knows the future. If God already knows the future, that includes everything we are going to do, ergo, we don’t really have free will. If we have free will, God is not omniscient. The two characteristics are mutually exclusive.
c) My favorite one: Could God create a being that is more powerful than He is? If He cannot create it, He is not omnipotent. If He creates it, He is not omnipotent.
d) God is defined as existing outside of space and time. Nevertheless, to create something, you need to limit yourself to the restraints of space and time (you cannot create something without a “where” and a “when”).
e) If God is perfect, He would have no reason to have created the universe. A perfect being is perfect in and off itself, by definition. Such a being would have no necessity, ever, to act in any way. He would neither have a desire to create anything, since desire is subjectively human.
f) If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why would He create life which exhibits poor design?
g) How can an omniscient being change His mind, like God has in the Bible?
h) If God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, why does He permit the existence of evil and suffering?
i) The belief in God by humans and religions’ development throughout history can all be explained by natural causes, therefore, resorting to supernatural explanations is superfluous and unnecessary.
There are more, but these seems to me the more poignant ones.
C is flawed.
Omnipotence means ‘potence = infinity’
God creates a more more powerful being, with potence = infinity + one
Infinity + one = infinity.
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Through simple maths, God would be capable of being omnipotent and capable of creating one more potent than God.
But (∞+1)≯∞. Your reasoning is what’s flawed here. This theoretical being wouldn’t be more powerful that God, but just the same.
If you wanna bring math into the matter (this is philosophy, but hey…), you could argue that maybe he would be able to create a “more densely omnipotent” being that He is… You know, like real vs. natural numbers. But how does that even apply?
And you didn’t say anything about any of the other points.
I don’t have any major problem with the other points.
And infinity can be greater than itself, but it is simultaneously equal to itself. That’s the weird thing about working with infinity, due to it not being a real number (or at least, not a single number).
Your God is pathetic.
Not to split too many hairs, but the only volume written from the Almighty’s voice is the Qu’ran. All others were authored by Men.
I was raised a Christian, but the logical portion of my mind (which is allegedly what sets me apart from other animals, due to the efforts of God) quickly started realizing none of it made any sense.
It all just seems like too much of a game, with rules that seem a little too manmade. The motivations behind it all just seem too human to have come from an all-powerful God.
There is also the problem with the many MANY religions on this planet, and varying beliefs. According to the Bible, those who believe in the other religions of the world are going to burn forever in Hell unless they repent prior to dying. Why should people belonging to these other faiths believe that the Christian God is more real than their God, who is just as intangible, and requires just as much faith.
The problem of Heaven and Hell also bothers me. Eternal suffering for people who’ve spent their entire lives trying to live a decent life but just happened to have the “wrong” spiritual beliefs? The “carrot and stick” method of keeping people in line is not very Godlike, on the contrary, it is essentially human to get someone to do what you want by threatening them. This is no different than the stories about the impossibly human-like Greek gods. There are just too many holes for it to add up for me.
I do not know if we have a soul, or if we’re just an highly evolved animal. Maybe every creature has a soul, and when we die it moves on to something else. Maybe we are reincarnated as another creature, maybe another human. Maybe we go to Heaven, and maybe Heaven is just a dream created by our soul while it waits for whatever comes next. I really don’t know. But that’s the wonder of it for me, I look forward to finding out some day. I believe the best anyone can do is to just try and do what they believe is right.
I don’t always agree with you Lolnathan, but this was very well said. I think you captured a lot of what I feel about religion. I’m also going to add that even though I identify myself as agnostic, I don’t have a problem with other people’s religions. Religion can bring a lot of comfort to a person and if that is what they need it is not for me to say they are wrong. What I DO have a problem with is the notion that I must also have a religion to belong in this country. That I must have prayer in my schools and religious documents on my courthouse lawns. I don’t ask you to be agnostic or athiest, please give me the same courtesy.
Religion says that before anything, there was God.
Science says that before anything, there was a Singularity contain the potential of the universe.
Both say that at the moment of creation, each entity realized its potential.
Just saying, is all.
Yep, pretty much.
No one knows how all this began because no one was there. Now, if no one will only publish, we could settle this once and for all!
Religion says that before anything, there was God. Religion is not willing to change its mind about this. Ever.
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Science says that to the best of the evidence that has been accessible by humanity, that before anything, there was probably a singularity that
contained the energy of the universe. But science is happy to change its mind if evidence suggests something else is more likely.
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I’m not quite sure where you get that ‘each entity realised its potential’ for science. Could you explain that for me?
Early on in the Church’s history — I believe the debate is from the Council of Nicea — it was argued whether during Mass the bread and wine transubstantiated or consubstantiated, whether the bread and wine actually transformed into the flesh and blood of Christ (the former) or already contained the essence of divinity and was merely activated by the preist (the latter). The Church decided to adopt Transubstantiation as canon and discard the other, mush to my displeasure.
The creation myth of the Egyptians begins with Ra in a lotus-egg floating beneath the waters of Chaos: when he opens his eyes, the universe begins; from his spit and semen he formed matter. (And yes, how and why he used spit and spunk is from what you’re thinking.) From himself he created existence.
Genesis never states how or with what God creates the universe, but if priorto Creation, there was only Him, it stands to reason that God similarly used Himself in creation; that is, everything is made of the matter of God (or, following through with the Big Band Theory, energy).
The only difference in this ideology and the Big Bang is sentience.
I find the consubstantive God far more palatable than the external God of the Abrahamic religions, whom I would otherwise denounce as a sanctimonious prick for killing my first daughter.
Good post Jane. Though I can understand the desire for things like the Ten Commandments to be outside courthouses and such, they have historical significance for the law I guess.
What really bugs me is people who use religion to rip people off or excuse oppressive behavior. I have seen many small businesses that advertise they are Christian-run, and their prices are often terrible. That’s just one small example. It ranges from stuff like that, to oppression against women or ethnic groups, to outright genocide. Religion gives a lot of comfort to some people, but when it becomes too organized it becomes quite dangerous.
He’s there.
Twiddling his/her thumbs…
Whereas your thumb is up your ass.
Captain Wow, I bestow upon you the Golden Rule Award. LOL
Is this news? … or Politics? .. Seems more like theology or philosophy to me…
Yeah, it’s an odd ball. But it did receive good votes, so we posted it.
Meh.. well, I guess I can’t argue with the majority… or teh beeg cheezburger.
because if you start arguing with cheeseburgers, people will think you’re crazy. And cats will hate you.
In retrospect, arguing with a cheezburger may have been more worth my time….
At least a cheezburger can be eaten post argument. Well, technically so can people posting on forums, but that involves chasing, and I’m not chasing any damned body.
Yes, because religion is never an issue in the news or politics. What could it possibly be doing here?
Too bad he’s imaginary =/
Euclidean space is also imaginary.
One slightly incorrect. Euclidean space is a human construct.
“Human construct” =/= “imaginary”?
Imagination doesn’t have defined rules.
I disagree. It doesn’t have a *finite*set* of defined rules, but it is very definitely rule-based.
Just ask any kid. “I can’t step on the red tiles! They’re lava!” Rules, but ones that are forever being defined and re-defined. The same kid might refuse to step on the blue tiles the next day on the grounds that they are the ocean and he will drown.
The number you are trying to reach is no longer in service. Please hang up and try again.
Please stay on the line, your call is very important to us….
And while I’ve got you on the line God; why did you tell them to write so many inconsistencies into your book?
_
_
Beware, this one’s a tricky one to get your head around:
And if you are omnipotent and all that, it would be true that you knew from the moment of creation what the result would be. So why do you claim that humans have freedom of thought? Either you knew that the Universe you created would result in the Universe being exactly the way it is now, and that any different decision in creating the Universe would result in the Universe being different in a way (in an exact different way that you also know what it would have been like), and therefore you lied to us about our freedoms. Or you are negligent because you didn’t consider the ramifications of your actions. Or you are not the full omni-trio (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent).
_
For the tl;dr on that last one. Either God is a liar, negligent or not omniscient.
Which inconsistencies? .. The ones you heard someone else talk about but never fully explain? Or the ones that you heard someone who also didn’t know what they were talking about talking about?
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To answer your ‘question’ – If I told you to go to the store, I would know you were going to the store… but I wouldn’t know which way you drove to get there. How’s that for an example of omniscience in the case of free will?
I found one site listing a few (click name). Obviously many of them are not inconsistencies because context is important, but some of them remain inconsistencies.
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For God to be omniscient, he would know which way I drove, and would have known I would drive that way at that time since creation.
If God didn’t know that, then God isn’t all three omnis.
If God is omniscient, then he knows what I will do, and I can do no other than that, and I have no free will. If I have no free will, I can not be held accountable for my actions, and thus “sin” is meaningless.
If I have free will, then God cannot know what I will do (see previous), and thus is not omniscient.
Your premise assumes that God is bound by our severely limited logic. While God has given us free will and we exercise it daily, He also knows what we will choose. The fact that He knows the outcome does not mean we do not have the choice, it only means that He knew what we would choose. Making our choice for us and knowing what our choice would be are different things. This may sound like I’m a loon, but I came from your side to begin with and struggled with this issue for years. Free will exists: God is simply beyond what we can comprehend (isn’t that the idea though? Isn’t He supposed to be a SUPREME being?)
n8, your comments remind me of myself several years ago. Unfortunately, that means you are not quite as wise as you think you are, and you would be wiser to remember that.
Faulty assumption on your part; it is equally if not more likely that you’ve become more foolish as you aged.
Fair enough to say. A point for you, sir, although I’m not sure being in my young twenties should count as “aged.”
However, I never said you aren’t wise. I merely said you aren’t as wise as you think you are. I also never said I am wise, although I will concede that I implied an improvement in this area, which I will stand by.
Heh, well as I’m in my early thirties, one could say that I’ve progressed further along the path than you have. I went back and forth on the God subject many times, and I’ve come to the conclusion that if such a being exists, nothing of what is said about him is true.
For the record, I’m an agnostic. I can’t begin to presume to Know The Truth as to whether such a being exists. As they say, the beginning of wisdom is the phrase “I do not know.”
Ah yes.. Agnostics gotta love Commitment Phobia.
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If you spend all day deciding whether or not to buy the ticket, you’re bound to miss the ride.
Please. A personal attack is not going to win me to an organized religion.
How is this a personal attack?
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How committed are you to being agnostic?
commitment phobia because you refuse to believe in a MESSED up , fully corrupt man made institution?…wait what am I doing… It’s amazing how this rock provokes me.
Good thing you came in late… your comments left here show nothing but ignorance and closed-mindedness FAR beyond any fundamentalist Bible-thumper… which, by the way, have been noticeably ABSENT from this conversation. Those of us on the ‘God exists” side of the conversation have all been fairly reasonable…
who said i didn’t believe in god? Also I must say I feel the same about your comments. How exactly do my comments based on historic fact, science, the study of world religion and my personal experience in several different churches show ignorance and closed- mindedness? My lack of desire to believe your straw man arguments? or is it because as a dyslexic my punctuation and capitalization fall to the way side? Some of you have been reasonable, X-bert, you have not.. Let me guess, you also believe that intelligent design should be taught in SCIENCE class and that stories about zeus and odin are mythology and not theology…..what is the difference? Oh right, because you believe it it must be true.
Gee, you sure know a lot about me… didn’t realize I was that easy to read.
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. Guess who I’m voting for in the Fall..
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. my age?
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My weight?
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I’m sure you’ll have about the same batting average there.
Proverbs 1:7 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.”
I know, as an agnostic (I spent several years as an agnostic before I got tired of balancing on the fence. I finally had to make the choice to believe, in spite of what I thought was logically flimsy at the time. Only then did I feel the presence of God and hear Him speak into my life, but that’s a story for another time lol.) the Bible holds little or no authority on…well…anything. However, I thought you might appreciate a legitimately on-topic biblical quotation, as I know they are rather rare. Christians today are generally very little like they Christ we are supposed to embody and represent, and this is disgraceful.
If there’s a mistake in the parenthetical addition, I blame firefox’s poor rendering of the text box and I apologize.
I’m not on the fence, I’m firmly committed to refining my world view based on observable evidence and logical thought. I’m certainly not going to take the rantings of bronze-age tribesmen as compelling testimony. Biblical quotation is meaningless, as the bible’s only authority comes in terms of itself. To illustrate:
1. How do you know God exists?
2. The bible says so.
3. How do you know the bible is true?
4. Because it is the word of God.
5. Repeat steps 1-5.
No no no…
5. Because it is the Word of God
4. We know the Bible is true
3. It says that God exists.
2. We know it’s true because God exists
1. Repeat steps 1-5.
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And please don’t assume that just because a person would rather hold to something they believe to be true, they are automatically less informed than someone who is willing to change their “world view” at the whim of the world. If you’re changing your world view based on evidence and logic, you are a slave to whatever evidence may be presented to you and therefore have given up your free will.
You have provided me with much mirth. This would garner a failing grade in any logic class taught outside of a faith-based school. I’m not going to try to reason with you further. Please, enjoy the remainder of your day.
Yes, I will. I will enjoy the rest of my day thinking about this win. LOL
Where is the proof that god exists?
In the Word.
Nothing outside of the bible then?
So much proof outside the bible!! Look at the beauty and harmony of the natural world.
How is that proof?
Want proof? Continue to deny God, then die.
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We will all eventually have proof.
Ah yes, proof after I’m dead when god roasts me because I didn’t believe in his questionable proof of existence…
There is a flaw in those steps.
5. Because it is the Word of God (Because man said so)
4. We know the Bible is true (Only because man says it is)
3. It says that God exists. (Again because we say so)
2. We know it’s true because God exists (Only a belief because God did not write it)
1. Repeat steps 1-5. (Would rather not)
“If you’re changing your world view based on evidence and logic, you are a slave to whatever evidence may be presented to you and therefore have given up your free will.”
Slave to evidence and logic? You mean the truth? Yes, I am a slave to what I can prove as true not what I am told is true. That is free will.
I believe in God because I see the evidence and choose to whereas somebody with a bible believes in God because they are TOLD to by the book.
Glad we could clear that up.
Sorry, bud, but you’re still wrong.
Personally, I do NOT believe it is the Word of God because man says so, but simply because I BELIEVE IT – that’s faith, and that is the flaw in all of these logic arguments we’ve seen here today.
Love and faith trump logic.
Also, you misread – I didn’t say slave to evidence – I said slave to the evidence presented to them.. present them with any half-convincing evidence and it changes their entire (non?)belief system.
As far as clearing things up – I never attacked you, man..
DON’T TASE ME, BRO!
No more a slave than you are to the evidence presented to you. You didn’t come up with the concept of God entirely on your own. You were introduced to it and believed the evidence provided in the book they gave you. Thus you are just as much a slave as we are. Period.
You believe it because you feel you have evidence that warrants your belief. Otherwise, it could have been anything. Instead you chose to go along with a book and what it says is true. How is that any different, realistically, than our “Slavery?”
As for it being half convincing, I have yet to see your evidence as any more compelling.
I had a witty retort, but instantly saw the holes you would rip into it. What I will say is that I expected you to ignore the quotation. I only offered it because I thought you might appreciate someone who actually quotes it in context, rather than throwing out randomly-memorized and contextually-worthless bible factoids. As far as authority goes, I’ve settled that with God, and the only way anyone can is through personally relationship with Him. Your logic is sound in your points, but I stand on a different premise, so I need not adhere to your train of thought any longer.
As far as being firmly committed to being malleable and flexible, influencible and changeable, I’ll take that as a sign that you can’t write off God’s existence yet either, or else you’ve made up your mind to be open-minded with exceptions, which is ludicrous. If you’re still open, I’d recommend reading C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. It’s an intriguing logical exploration of God from the viewpoint of one of the most prominent atheistic, and then Christian authors of the 20th century. I found it to be a good read, even before I gave my life to Christ.
I’m merely open to new evidence. A tip of the hat to you, and I wish you well.
.. and had He known you would turn the wrong way, go 3 blocks before realizing it, make a wrong turn and get a ticket for speeding trying to make up the lost time… He would let you.
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Free will – it’s also the same thing that allows me to stop replying now. Thanks for the interesting conversation for once.
But God has always known this and created the Universe in a specific way with full knowledge the whole time that it would happen, and God could have chosen to make the universe ever so slightly differently but still with just as much ‘free will’.
That things still go wrong in life doesn’t demonstrate our free will, it demonstrates that God is a masochist.
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I present to you a few choices:
1) God didn’t know what I would do when God created the universe, which means God isn’t omniscient.
2) God couldn’t make the universe in any other way, which means God isn’t omnipotent.
3) God made the universe with full knowledge of all its future failings, which means God isn’t omni-benevolent.
4) God doesn’t exist.
The label says God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent- one of those three has to be untrue!
All three are true, we don’t recognize it because we are finite beings and God is infinite.
I’m tempted to bring up the Occam’s Razor argument here, but I’m pretty sure the discussion would proceed exactly as it always does, without changing anybody’s mind, as is always the case.
May whatever you believe in give you comfort.
Occam’s Razor? Enlighten me please. Or at least link it.
Occam’s Razor: All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the best.
Might as well… ok, start with cause and effect. Every effect has a cause,
but that leads us back to a First Cause from which all effects stem. The first cause must have caused itself, and the believer will tell you that God was the First Cause, and went on to create the universe in a cascading wave of causality. However, Occam’s Razor dictates that the simplest answer is the most likely. If something had to cause the universe, and the First Cause must have caused itself, then it is more likely that the Universe (which we can observe to exist) caused itself than that God (whom we cannot observe (directly, I say as a nod to the believers)) caused it. If we ditch the Razor, then it is equally valid to claim that God collaborated with his roommate Steve and a talking Chipmunk to build a robot which then constructed the universe.
That’s it in a nutshell.
Perhaps so, but there are also people who believe there was no first cause. That the Big Bang was caused by something occurring in the multiverse, and that this unknown multiverse may have always existed.
I could argue with you as I have actually read the bible, many versions of the bible and the book of mormon, the Koran and various other religious texts, etc but see my post above, Like arguing with a rock.
Reminds me of the Bible’s warning label:
WARNING: This a work of fiction. Do NOT TAKE it literally.
CONTENT ADVISORY:
Contains verses descriptive or advocating suicide, incest, bestiality, sadomasochism, sexual activity in a violent context, murder, morbid violence, use of drugs or alcohol, homosexuality, voyeurism, revenge, undermining of authority figures, lawlessness and human rights violations and atrocities.
EXPOSURE WARNING: Exposure to contents for extended periods of time or during formative years in children may cause delusions, hallucinations, decrease cognitive and objective reasoning abilities, and in extreme cases, pathological disorders, hatred, bigotry, violence including but not limited to fanaticism, murder and genocide.” endanger your mental health and life”.
Having actually read the book, I have to say you are wrong on many accounts. The Bible tells many stories, many of which are cautionary tales. It tells a history of a people, and how God interacted with them. It contains poetry and song, as well as advice. There is only one perfect person depicted in it. He left us with a lot to think about. I’d encourage you to get a decent translation, and read the words of Jesus. Personally, I receive a great deal of hope and comfort from them. Your experience may be different, of course.
Peace.
What would you consider to be a decent translation? The KJV that apparently many people hold so near and dear? Written by poets. ANY translation you get of the bible is going to be flawed, because any time something is translated into a new language, things are lost. So the only way you can read the bible as it was originally written, is to learn the language it was originally written in.
you can’t do that. the bible is missing many books because the bible was written by men with an agenda and the committee left a large chunk out because it didnt suit their purposes at the time. Also the dead sea scrolls, which were apparently actually written by Jesus, disputes the need for church and bible as god is in all things. Yet the church refuses to include these works in the bible. If anyone knows the word of god you think it would be the guy who is directly related instead of people who made crap up about jesus 200 years after he was crucified. History contradicts the bible, science contradicts the bible, the bible contradicts the bible and my personal favourite, Jesus himself apparently contradicts the bible.
Faith is a concept of a convenant between God and the person. I never understood how a temple came into the picture as it leads to a person making the rules, not God.
Exactly! I like you. you have a brain.
I have faith and believe in a higher power, not because a book told me too or some dude told me too but because of events I have seen in my life. I have read the book and have seen where man has been doing all the writing. However I can also see the points therein that were meant for something more than just control fodder. There is merit to the book but it remains just a book. A book, I might add, that many people claim to know but never read.
At a building of worship, I don’t see that covenant, I see a person telling us what the bible is and what god is. Very big different hence why I avoid churches and the like.
Thank you, glad to be of service.
I never really understood how personal events led about such a beleive about reality. Afterall, the event is not equal to the image we develop of the event in our minds. I can’t understand why people prefer the images they make in there heads of an event, instead of the event itself.
Shortly sad: why not stick with the facts? Why even “beleive” something concerning non-personal (as in, the reality outside your mind, wich concerns anyone and not just you as an individual). It looks so odd.
I saw my boys come into this world and I felt something greater than myself. It truly could be all in my head but I have seen a lot of things that I can’t really attribute to my own delusions. Then again, perhaps that is my true delusion.
I neither care nor require you follow along with my belief in a higher power. If anything, I just hope you enjoy your day. I am working off facts I have seen in my own life.
Fact remains that science tells us that there was once nothing and then it exploded yet I can’t believe something was behind at least that event. Maybe God was just a big explosion of energy and only existed in that instance which is why there is no real guidance on this planet and possibly others that have life.
If there is still something, I honestly think it doesn’t care or just really is entertained by an infinitely broad range of things.
“ANY translation you get of the bible is going to be flawed, because any time something is translated into a new language, things are lost.” this is actually an incorrect statement. For example, if you translate something from Russian to English, do you think your going to miss the meaning of the original? “So the only way you can read the bible as it was originally written, is to learn the language it was originally written in.” That’s why we have scholars.
There are actually a couple of versions that are translated directly from the greek and hebrew writings. One of my favorites is the New Internation Version since does give references to support the translation. If you want poetic flowery writing, stick with the KJV, but you will actually be getting an incorrect translation.
Why would god create people he knew were going to not believe in him or otherwise sin and spend eternity burning in hell?
Sadism?
If you chain a dog to a post and whip him until he loves you, it doesn’t mean as much as if the dog loves you of his own free will now does it?
(see my wrong turn comment)
But free will is not a factor here – those people are never going to choose or love god. If god is omniscient he knows this. Why does god create them when they are guaranteed to be damned and go to hell?
They have the opportunity and choose the wrong way – so free will IS a factor.
However, please take into consideration that your original question is asking about an allegedly infinite being, and that said question is posed to finite beings.
But god knew they were going to choose the wrong way. People may have free will but if god is god it knows everything everyone is going to do in the entirety of time. It’s not like anyone is going to pull one over on god. “Wow, Gus had chicken instead of beef for lunch. Didn’t see that one coming!” “Wow, Paula became an atheist and is going to hell! I can’t believe it!”
Which again goes back to my original question – god knows it will create people who will reject and sin and burn in hell forever. Why does it do it?
That is a good question, I think about that a lot myself… I haven’t come to a conclusion yet but I’m thinking about it…
I have no better answer for this question, either, but I see no reason to live the rest of my life in doubt over God’s existence based on not understanding His purpose.
In God We Trust.
Oh, it’s not changing my mind about what I believe, it’s just making me think and question, which I like.
As does every extreme Muslim with a bomb on his chest or every KKK member who goes to church to talk about the dangers of minorities. In God We Trust and do not question.
Perhaps a little questioning isn’t so bad.
Christians sure make Christ look bad sometimes…
Hell, they make God look bad too.
It’s okay, I’ve been asking the question for a while and I’ve never gotten a satisfying answer. There may not be one, and that may not have an impact on the believer, but it does make it hard for me to believe in a god that, as far as I can tell, creates people just to punish them.
Jehovah’s into BDSM, pass it on.
As I saw on a t-shirt somewhere: “Flatter Jesus or he’ll torture you forever in Hell!”
I’m in agreement with lol. Any “supreme being” that says “Do as I say or I’ll torture you for all eternity” is not to be worshipped, but shunned. That would be like bowing down before Hitler.
Of course if there is a God and you DO shun Him, I would NOT want to be in your place!
Is it better then to bow before tyranny? If a world leader demanded the same of his citizens that God supposedly does of Christians, we’d liberate the f*ck out of that place!
Yes, but we are talking about God here, not a world leader. God says to follow certain rules and you will have eternal life and the alternative is to be very very unhappy otherwise for eternity. That doesn’t seem to be tyranny since if you do believe in God, you believe he created the world and even gave you your own life so why can he not set the terms? If you don’t believe in God, in the end you may be very sorry.
… So I guess your parents never punished you for anything?
Which god do you choose to believe in though? The Christian god? Allah? Ancient Egyptian gods? Not only do you have to convince me of the existence of a god, but you have to convince me that your god is right and all the others are false. Each religion has a very different set of rules about what you have to do and who you have to believe in to avoid the eternal BBQ pit.
So we do not worship out of love but out of fear…
I forget who said it, but a quote that has stuck with me is: “Authority is never a valid basis for morality, even if that authority were divine.” And x-bert, if that was directed at me, then yes, my parents punished me all the time. It didn’t work very well, however. I simply resolved to find new ways around them. I didn’t accept that any other will than mine should dictate my actions, and I still don’t.
Your parents also weren’t invisible, didn’t have a vague rule system, and didn’t burn you for all eternity for getting it wrong either.
Wyrm: Exactly! The whole concept is obviously a product of the era in which it was formed. We’ve advanced so far as a species over the last few millenia, why should we tie ourselves to so barbaric a belief system?
Also, you can see that the religion evolved throughout the bible. Jehovah acted like an angry drunk throughout the old testament and then suddenly became all cuddly love… Then sacrificed his own son… BUT IT WAS OUT OF CUDDLY LOVE!!!
Also the old laws of Leviticus sound more like propoganda and control than God’s word.
Wow, I don’t understand that quote… then what is a valid basis for morality? Nothing? Is that what I am missing? I guess you could say that. The rules of the Christian God are not there to trip you up, they were given to show were we fall short is all. When we see we can’t ever be good enough to be close to God the idea is to reach for help which is freely given. (This is a very very simplified explanation here… really limited) I believe we are actually still being “created”.
Ema: The point of the quote is that “those are the rules because I said so” is never valid, not even if it’s God saying so.
Because God didn’t say so, that is the whole point. It is people claiming the inspiration of God and using that presumed authority. God doesn’t have a publisher.
Today we call people who claim the inspiration of God a special word. Crazy. Jesus could not function in today’s society because we would all just call him crazy. Just like the Jews did. However, the “Crazy” of the past has become the prophet of the present.
Now I wish I had the wherewithal to write a holy text and see if it passes through the ages until the word of DW is a religion. We give the bible credit because of the age of the text. Also it lent itself to a lot of misuse which could give the unwashed masses hope and the rich more power.
Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to make it into heaven. However, who are the loudest preachers in this country?
So no, the I said so rule does not work for me. Especially when it has been man all along writing the rules.
But then what is the basis for morality? What we as flawed individuals think? Or should we just scrap any idea of morality?
The basis for morality can be a number of things. Concern for your fellow man, enlightened self-interest, or just general benevolence. People can be genuinely good without the whips of hell at their backs, or the promise of some ill-defined “treasure” in heaven.
Basis of morality is simple. People are tribal by nature so they create social constructs to allow for ease of interaction. Balance of self interest and community.
It sounds very banal put into those terms but it isn’t less magical. We should not murder, rape, or steal from each other. We should help each other out and do what we can to be self sufficient.
Not because a book says so. We should do it because it helps us all to be like that. It allows for a safety and comfort that comes with harmony. God was brought into it because people don’t like to hear it put simply or because some guy says so. We want to hear it from a higher power or authority.
If Bush came out and told the soldiers they were fighting for him, nothing would happen. Instead they are fighting for Freedom, God, America, all things bigger than just one man or even a bunch of jerks in Congress.
Would you rather do good for goodness sake or because God said to be good and he has candy in heaven? People like motivation beyond its own reward.
But yea, I am rambling.
Wyrm, do you think for one minute that tribal folks didn’t rape, murder and steal from each other? Not to mention adultery, lying and so forth. They usually would have a cheif or elder council that may or may not take care of problems but they could be corrupt (sounds like today!) Just telling people they should not is not enough in some cases, especially if you remove all vestiges of religion or moral codes from a society.
Um, I don’t recall saying that they didn’t. I said that people are tribal and the laws exist to keep them from anarchy.
Never said anything about it being a magical fix, I was stating cause for laws which is what you asked. A chief or priest claims authority to mandate laws when his authority is not enough.
As for the removal of religion in a society, look what happens with abundance of religion. Book burnings, murder, rape, cover ups, witch trials, inquisitions, crusades all in the name of religion. How is that any better than a simple code of laws?
Belief in God is not the reason for good to exist. If I see you hurt, I will help you because I care about other people, not because God told me too. I am tapping into something that is mine, not outside of me.
If you really wanted to get banal, you could break it down into self interest. I help you because I could be making a new friend (ally) and I am also releasing chemicals in my brain for doing something that makes me happy (making others happy.)
However, I prefer to simply say that I would help you because I feel it is right, not because of a code. People are tribal so the norm is to look out for each other so they will look out for you. Wolves and other animals do it without any pretension of religion.
I have yet to see Religion cure anything but I have surely seen it do a lot of harm.
Blast, I rambled again…
If there is no higher being, then all humans have are each other. Therefore, shouldn’t we work with each other, help each other, and rise up together? If there is no shiny afterlife, shouldn’t we work even harder in this one to pursue justice, fairness, and love?
Or shouldn’t we grab all the stuff we can since you only live once? Shouldn’t I take your stuff and enjoy it myself? Why not? Is there some rule that says I can’t?
larceny?
Enlightened self interest, Ema. You shouldn’t steal from others because if that kind of behavior becomes widespread, then you will likely be robbed. If you hold theft to be wrong, and convince others of that, then your stuff is likelier to remain yours.
A man made law?! I’m not feelin it. Who has the right to have authority over me?
Well, I hold that theft is wrong for them, but not for me.
@ema concerning the base of morality:
Simple: compasion. Why bother with thousands of deity’s, ranging from lightening throwing beared guys on top of a mythical mountain to a guy with birds flying around him, riding around in a big ass chariot, when you’ve got billions of members of your owns species who are real and we can actually affect with our actions. Also ema, altruïsme is “hard wired” into us, wich is obvious because we’re a pack species ala elephants. It’s simply 1 of the most usefull survival skills humans have.
Also, I could die tomorrow – so I want to enjoy myself now.
And belief in god magically changes your pov to a more beneficent one?
Through the power of love, yes. I really do like other people a lot and do understand about the pack animal thing we all want to belong. But, I know that I am not perfect and left to my own devices I would and I have done mean things to people.
Ema: Obviously you regret having done so. You don’t need a Father Confessor or old-guy-in-the-sky though, when you can forgive yourself and resolve not to do it anymore. Without getting too sappy, being good to people makes you feel good as a consequence. That’s reason enough not to be a douche to people. Bringing religion into it just complicates matters.
I know a really devout religious guy. I asked him one day what he would do if he found out, 100% sure, that there was no god. He said he would buy a gun and start killing people, because there would be nothing to keep him in line. Wow. O_O
But me forgiving myself? Where is the integrity in that? I could do anything then just forgive myself for it. If there was something required of me for forgiveness, that would make more sense. I would then be grateful and resolve to do better out of love for a merciful creator. (I don’t think of him as an old dude but a spirit, or pure love)
I find that disturbing that people require a chaperone not to kill each other. I do good because it is good not because I have to be threatened.
Ema: As for who would keep you in line… Well I am pretty sure anybody who can kick you ass would do so if you tried to cross them. Nothing to stop them either.
Society works because the rules spread across the board or at least they are supposed to. You don’t murder because you don’t want to be murdered. When you murder somebody you justify your own death.
I somehow don’t think you are a badass Ema, no offense but you just don’t have that vibe. I feel that in an anarchy, you wouldn’t be as on top as you are stating. Nor would any of us.
I was using very extreme examples to make a point, you are right!
Well, if you felt no guilt, then you wouldn’t have anything to
forgive yourself for. In this context “forgive” means “don’t beat yourself up over it.” And what would be required is that you try not to do it again, kind of like repentance, but in an internal context. Why not do it out of love for yourself?
Forgiveness can also be obtained from those that you may have wronged.
Ema I kind of feel sorry for you. I can tell you are an intelligent , thinking person but for some reason you think the worst of your fellow man. If forgiveness gets you into heaven what stops you from doing whatever you want? I mean you can just say sorry and in you go. no fuss no muss. However if you have to take responsibility for your actions and for how your environment is, if you take the idea that all things are connected, if you screw someone, someone will screw you.that is what will stop people from being vicious to each other.. before religion humans worked together to survive. now humans work against each other trying to prove who is right. Why can you not believe in your god yourself and I believe in mine and other people believe or dis-believe in their ideas without anyone trying to force others to their point of view. My personal experience and research has lead me to believe that fundamentalist in any religion are a scary group of people and the bible is not to be trusted anymore than any other work of fiction. It may make some very valid points, but it is not the only truth out there nor is it the only way to god. People who refuse to look at history etc are guilty of doing a disservice to themselves and their cause. You need to constantly think and grow as you were intended to do. I am not a satanist, nor will i ever be, but the satanists I’ve met have all had valid reasons for doing so, and not because someone told them to. Their actions, on average have been nicer to their fellow man than any of the fundamentalists i’ve met. I have met some wonderful tollerant christians as well, but they do not take the bible as literal, nor do they believe in eternal damnation as a LOVING god would not do such a thing. As such I have found when a person is set in the fundamentalist mindset they stop thinking. When you try to bring a valid point they BS their way through and if you give up because they are not listening, they think they won. it is like arguing with a rock.except a rock wouldnt be smug about frustrating you by not listening.
Sorry, end ramble
Or you can just keep being good not because God will punish you and simply just be good because you can benefit from it. There are plenty of punishment on Earth in my experience.
Think about it, what if you didn’t believe in God, why would you care about supposed afterlife punishment if you didn’t believe in it? Atheists don’t use the lack of God as an excuse to kill people. There isn’t a reason behind it.
If you steal from me, I will come after you, God forgiveness or not.
Well! I’m running out of good arguments here, it’s that time of that afternoon again!
(I let you off the hook yesterday, Wyrm!) I will be thinking about all these discussions though and may have more to say at some point, I do appreciate hearing all the different points of view.
I look forward to it, my dear. Rest well.
I never really understood why people need some kind of “boss above boss” who dishes out the rules. Compasion and logic seem to do the trick for me, why would I bother with some kind of deity deliverd out of Bronze Age stories?
And I’de like to add, why would any rules given by a deity be the best? Are they the best just because God says so? Well tough luck for God: I disagree with loads of his views. I’m also glad the law of my country disagree’s with God, or at least ignores him, or else lots of people would be in trouble.
I would imagine the “answer” to that question would be because it’s part of God’s Plan (or perhaps God’s Will, if you want to get Palinesque about it
). If He is all-seeing, then He knows the past, present and future. Like you said, lol, you can’t put one over on God. This means that, despite knowing that millions of people will go to Hell for a variety of reasons/sins/non-belief/etc., His ultimate goal will be accomplished (whatever that may entail, be it eternal life in Heaven, world peace, or free ice cream for everyone). This presumes, of course, that there is a plan, a goal, and so forth.
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And just so we’re clear, I’m not making a statement of non/belief. This is strictly a devil’s advocate sort of statement here. I do NOT make it a point to discuss religion with anyone because it is generally pointless (I mean, really, in any of these discussions have you seen a comment of “Holy crap! You’re right! God doesn’t exist! You’ve opened my eyes!!” or the vice versa? Yeah, exactly…). The fact of religion is that you either believe or you don’t believe. Faith bridges the gap between God’s existence and what can be disputed with logic, i.e. If God is so all-powerful, can He create a stone so heavy that He cannot move it? Faith allows the leap that despite the previous statement questioning/disproving God’s existence, you simply still believe…then answer, “He wouldn’t do something that stupid…”
Yes, the assumption is that everything god does is some sort of plan. But at that point the thought process shuts down – questions of “why?” are answered with “because god must want it” and no further philosophical considerations can really be discussed. Believers are forced to have faith in a process that is not revealed to them and therefore not understood. It’s a jump I cannot take.
Oh yeah, you’re dead on about that. It doesn’t answer “why” very sufficently (at least for those not of the faith). Believers aren’t necessarily forced (it might seem that way, I know) to believe in God’s Plan. It is things like that which test their faith, thus, they are exercising free will to continue believing in God and what His Will is. If it’s one thing I’ve noticed regarding faith is that it can beat out logic every time with a simple, “Well, I still believe.” How do you counterpoint that, right? You can’t. So for you, it’s not enough of an answer and, (un)fortunately, you have to decide what works for you when it comes to belief in God.
Well said.
I simply ask, what makes you think an answer to the “why?” even exists? That’s a maaaaajor assumption to start from.
There are no answers, just randomness in the universe? I can dig it.
Okay, so what about the people who don’t have the opportunity? Obviously this doesn’t apply to anbody here, but the number of people who have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus or the Bible vastly outnumbers those who have heard and chosen not to believe in them. People were around for a long time before Jesus. They were around for a long time before the Old Testament was written, even if you accept the timeline it gives. Not to mention the amount of time it’s taken for knowledge of the Bible to spread, and the fact that there are still people in some places today who have never heard of it. I simply cannot accept that God would condemn all those people just because they were born at the wrong time or in the wrong place.
I read a great book once,(i really like humour based on the book of revelations) I can’t for the life of me remember the name but the plot went something like this:
a guy and his wife were on a cruise when the end of the world starts. now because the end of the world according to the book of revelations also means the beginning of another, there was a crazy period where god was trying out different realities for the new world. in one of the new realities the protagonist meets the love of his life. they appear to be the only two who notice how everything keeps changing. eventually they see god and Odin talking about stuff. It turns out that this Christian guy has fallen in love with an astrunian(worshiper of Odin) so she wont be with him during the end of the world after all, because as she is one of Odin’s Yahweh’s punishment cannot be exacted on her.
I believe that its the same with belief. If you belong to the giant spaghetti monster then you need to follow its rules or you will be punished, but the giant spaghetti monster cannot punish the followers of ganesh and ganesh cannot punish the followers of Odin and Yahweh cannot punish the followers of Zeus. That would be like the king of Uganda punishing a citizen of england for committing a crime that is against Ugandan law while said citizen is in england. Its not up to him so he cant do it. now if they were in uganda that would be different.
I like the concept behind this belief. That everyone’s afterlife will be according to their beliefs.
All Christians will go to their Heavens.
Muslims will go to their’s.
People who believe in reincarnation will reincarnate.
And atheists will rot in the ground.
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The only problem with it of course is that many religions contradict each other regarding worldly and provable issues.
Actually, they all believe in the same endstate…they are just so obsessed with how they have it right and everyone else is wrong that they can’t figure out that they blew it.
Not everybody believes in the same end state. I believe there is no afterlife of any kind. People of Abrahamic religions believe in their own version of heaven. There are people that believe in reincarnation.
I was suggesting that each peoples go to their own heaven/afterlife. Muslims would have a separate Heaven to Christians.
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But still, as I pointed out earlier, it is not possible for all religions to coexist because several of them directly contradict each other.
Looks like Big Ear at the Owen’s Valley Radio Observatory.
It’s really kind of hard to tell. If you could see more of the ground it would give you better indication.
I guess captioning the photo with “Ground Control to Major Tom” wouldn’t have stirred things up quite as much
I think “Fire ze missiles! Zen, have a nap” would have been good.
LMAO – yes.
Very true! LOL
“And if you are omnipotent and all that, it would be true that you knew from the moment of creation what the result would be. So why do you claim that humans have freedom of thought?”
I’m an atheist, but don’t agree with your logic there. We all know as soon as a photo gets posted that someone’s gonna post “FIRST!” and someone’s gonna correct someone else’s bad grammar for no useful reason and someone’s gonna claim to have pleasured him/herself while posting a reply. Just because we know all that in advance, doesn’t mean free will isn’t involved.
WIN!!! That is sooo true. Now waiting for someone to do all 3 in a response to your comment…
Fail … Read up there ^^ for some good reasons and reasoning.
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Already dealt with an Agnostic – you should be easy… watch this:
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You believe that you have free will? I will assume yes.
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So.. how’d you get that free will?
Umm… evolution? (Oh noes! The faith-head’s kryptonite!!!)
LMAO!!!
It depresses me to no end how little my fellow Christians know about evolution. Ugh.
Macro- iffy, at best.
Micro- undeniable, at worst.
Speciation has been demonstrated numerous times.
Where??? They’ve actually demonstrated or shown it to happen?
Look at this: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
I don’t know how to post websites here. Talkorigins dot org is a great start to clear up a lot of evolution misunderstandings.
Your post has now posted, but for future reference. The section below where you put your E-mail is labeled URI. Put the website there and your name will link to the website.
I will demonstrate now, by linking to Google
Cool, thanks.
We don’t ‘have free will’ – we *are* our free will.
Uh… ok.
Still waiting for a reply from Chris…
My reply (lower in this thread because of nesting) was rude. What I should have said, more diplomatically, is: How come when people don’t know what something comes from, or how something happens, they assume it’s God?
It seems to me that a lot of believers say “God did such-and-such” because they’re too lazy or proud to say “I don’t have the knowledge to explain how that happened.” If we showed a 15th century guy a TV set, he’d think it was either a miracle or withcraft.
Be the free will!
to quote a great man. “Christianity is based only on stolen stolen souls and lives. Every trace of them should be erased” -Gaahl
Took a lot of Gaahl to say that…….. and not much lol to say this…
Is he burning forever for that now? So far for “freedom of expression” in God’s universe. Actually, when you look to it, God is running the universe (well at least our planet) like Stalin ran the Sovjet Union.
“You believe that you have free will? I will assume yes.
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So.. how’d you get that free will?”
You have your head up your ass? I will assume yes.
So… how’d it get there?
You don’t know those three things will definitely happen though, they are just assumptions based on previous data and likelihood. Hence, not omniscient.
Following that logical path, how can we know anything beyond the famed: “I think. Therefore, I am”?
Nothing is certain, but repeatable observations based on past events lend a hand to confidently predicting future ones. The sun will rise tomorrow, the moon will be full on Tuesday, an apple I drop from my hand will hit the ground, etc.
“The sun will rise tomorrow, the moon will be full on Tuesday, an apple I drop from my hand will hit the ground, etc.” … where’d all those rules come from?
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Evolution?
No, since evolution deals only with change in living organisms and the sun, moon, and gravity are obviously not living.
Gravity
Basic principles of light refraction
And gravity again.
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We have always known that things work like that, but you can thank a handful of Europeans from several hundred years ago for the knowledge of how they work like that.
Not really Chris, there is difference in “knowing” and “thinking”. We THINK those events will happen, based on certain facts. God would KNOW those things happen, wich means there is no doubt they would happen: the future is set in stone, nothing you can do about it, thus no free will.
i think the funny part, is most of you are so close minded, that you assume this is talking about the “christian” god. cant you people accept that people may believe in other gods.
that being said, i think the caption is a reputation of what most of our country is saying right now, years of crap with bush and now were looking at a race with ….well two bowls of crap, the only difference is the smell.
“that being said, i think the caption is a reputation of what most of our country is saying right now, years of crap with bush and now were looking at a race with ….well two bowls of crap, the only difference is the smell.”
Which is why my presidential ballot will look like this:
Write in candidate: Colin Powell.
Colin Powell ‘08: The perfect combo of Obama and McCain, minus the suck.
I could, jump right in with your other gods replies!
ema dearest, they’re called “idols”
I’m tired. I’m going back to bed. It’s been a lovely morning folks.
or idols… that’s ok I like to hear it… have a nice nap!
I’m not close minded, closed minded, or clothes minded.
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Why did we all assume they meant the (Only, True, Living) Christian God? Well, maybe it had something to do with the reference to “God” – singular and only by the name of “God”, not Allah, or Krishna, or Ra, etc.
God’s not a name, it’s a job description.
That is because apparently the followers of the bible never actually read it. The English translation for the name of God is Jehovah. We just never hear it for some reason.
Isn’t it Yahweh in the old testament and Jehovah in the new? It could very well be that all those priests I talked to about this discrepancy were right and its an AKA or it could very well be 2 different gods. OH MY GODS christians are polytheistic! lol!
Yes, it is supposed to be the same god, just different translations of the name. I couldn’t remember the Yahweh name, thank you.
Don’t forget the latin spelling of Iehovah.
acording to answers.com: Jehova is the modern reconstruction of the ancient Hebrew ineffable name of God (Yahweh).
I thought that teh old testament was written in hebrew and the new was written in greek, or something like that.
Steve? you there? could you get me my staff of life? kthxbai
I made a lol to describe my feelings about God. Feel free to take a look.
God put us in a garden in the beginning with a tree we weren’t allowed to touch. However, God made us curious so he would know that we couldn’t resist touching it if we went with our natures that God himself gave us.
After we do as God made us, he casts us out, punishing us for the nature we were given. As for those wishing to bring up the serpent, well God should have known about that and protected his creations if he actually cared, now shouldn’t he? As for those wishing to call it a test, how can you be tested when you honestly don’t know any better? You are told one thing and then shown another. Also, there is the fact that Eve was deceived which apparently we are blaming her now because we are idiots.
Skipping through all the murder, rape, warfare, and evidence of a violent and wrathful god, we get to Jesus. God being omnipotent could have done or said whatever he pleased and removed our sin. Makes sense right? He is God after all. Instead he decides to create a mortal vessel for his son who then must be tortured to death to alleviate our sins which we only have because of the capacity he gave us.
Let us not forget all the weird and esoteric laws and ceremonies either. Women being unclean, not wearing dualfiber clothing, and hating gays. Yes, hating gays for what they were born with. Glad God is such a loving being. I could go on but I honestly get a little angrier with every thing I am typing.
Yes I believe there is a god, I knew it when I saw my sons being born. It was horrific and beautiful all at once. I felt that connection but I also know what else happens. I remember the song God Bless Texas or whatever it was called. Now I am looking at the aftermath of Ike…
Yep, God blessed Texas to hell and back. Glad we could clear that up. God isn’t just love, he is everything at once. Hate, Malice, Ecstasy, Spite, Compassion, etc. All that together just tells me that if he is everything at once then perhaps he just chooses to be nothing, apathetic and just watch the show.
So when you want to talk about how he is love and saved your singular child or auntie or Uncle Steve, just remember while he was doing that, about 30,000 people died elsewhere. Horribly.
Stop using the glue- you’re bumming us out…..
The Truth hurts.
or an opinion even.
I appreciate the explanation.
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Did you hear that ema? right after this posted, I could hear people’s world view changing.
A plant that grows toward any and all sources of light will wind up one sick and twisted specimen… the ones that grow straight up toward the one TRUE source will grow straight and live long.
Have a nice day all.
So either I am sick and twisted or straight and long lived. I really wish you would say what you mean instead of trying to preach an example. It would really help your point instead of being passive aggressive which only serves to annoy instead of enlighten.
Hypothetically I suppose it could be said that you are complimenting but I highly doubt it which leaves me with the remainder to patronized. As for your plant analogy, it really depends on the plant. Some plants grow in many directions because that is how they are. Other plants simply grow straight up because that is how they are. If God created both and all creation is beautiful then who are you to determine which is aberrant and which is holy?
As for the trees that live the longest of all plants, they tend to branch out but you feel free to tell me about these purely straight Pole trees you seem to believe. Even those that grow up the straightest still have gnarled roost below that keep them alive.
Let’s not dick about with metaphors and try to just talk straight, shall we?
Wait, what about roots and tubers? Are potatoes and carrots minions of The Deceiver?
Well potatoes are members of the Nightshade family and will produce a toxin if you leave them exposed to sunlight if I remember correctly. Never know.
Doh and I forgot to mention that while carrots might be minions of deception, they help your eyesight.
The straight/twisted thing was only meant as an example – if you don’t like that, don’t bother looking into Buddhism – you’ll only get annoyed. In the meanhile, I’m not a preacher, and never intended to “preach”. I was merely sharing my own opinion.
I am neither complimenting, nor patronizing, nor am I laying judgment on what is aberrant or holy.
If you want straight talk, have a sample from up there ^^^ I’m officially done with this thread.
Thanks again.
Buddhism believes in an overall karma system, they don’t believe in punishing you for simply being human. Nor do they believe in a Get Out of Jail Free card either, which is the concept of being “Saved.” Big difference. Bye though.
You do have to follow rules though or be punished by bad karma…
Exactly, your actions have reaction. Cause and Effect. Which is fine. I just take issue with being punished because I didn’t pray the correct way or didn’t get hit with the right caliber of holy water or didn’t say enough Hail Marys.
Whoever told you that is one sick f*ck.
Precisely why I stopped bothering with Church. I can read the bible and glean what meaning I can from it on my own without a spoon feeding. I just don’t presume that God gives a damn.
My point was that there are plenty of analogies. Bye yourself… on this conversation at least.
You can’t leave!!
I think he means those trees that grow in perfect lines, evenly spaced along the side of the road, with ‘vines’ running from treetop to treetop. Those things DO seem to live a long time. Unless you’re in FL and a hurricane plucks them all up.
Technically an opinion I have formed with evidence seen in my life. Still an opinon though.
Yes, I was countering n8’s capitol T Truth hurts post… We all look at the world around us through our own eyes and although I do believe in a capitol T Truth, I think we all actually see our own version most of the time. Me too!!
No worries hun. I just figured I would clarify.
.. and I also would like to make clear that it was never my intention to deny that each person is fully entitled to their own opinion or belief.
But you have spent an awful lot of time in this thread talking about the “One True God”, not to mention referring to other gods as idols. We get it. You’re a Christian. Not all of us are, and those who aren’t don’t appreciate you acting like you are a more authoritative source than we are. I personally believe in God, but not the version you seem to. However, I can accept that you believe what you believe, and that it is just as valid to you as my beliefs are to me. I may point out where I disagree with your beliefs, but I’m not going to dismiss them just because they aren’t the same as mine. When people bring up other religions, it really isn’t productive to say that yours is right because you believe it. It isn’t even productive to say that yours is right because your religious writings say so, because of course pretty much every religion can point to their own religious writings and say that they prove that their religion is the right one. Please just stick with stating what you believe, as something you believe, and not as if it were an undeniable fact.
I’m sure this discussion has about run it’s course, but here’s my two cents. Or dollars what with the economy these days…
“Sin” is breaking off relationships and treating another as if their opinion and being do not matter. I am guilty of that myself on this board and it has given me a lot to think about lately. How am I any better denigrating, oh say EP, for his opinion as tit for tat response to his denigration? I am not. I am the same.
To say that “I am only human” in this eye for an eye mentality is to sell humanity short. I believe we were created with the capacity to know the right thing to do and to do it. That I have often chosen not to because it feels good to smack at EP is no excuse. I have not done the right thing.
Evil Pundit, I apologize for denigrating you. I apologize for even thinking badly of you because simple thoughts lead to actions. I still think you are a robot who for whatever reason will not be swayed by others even when they are reasonable but that if for you to deal with. I will leave you alone.
As to God existing or not, I have been raised from an early age to believe there is a God and have had multiple experiences in my life that have affirmed it. But they are my experiences and bear meaning for me; I cannot give them to any of you. All I can do is bear witness. I am bothered by the certainty on both sides of this issue because all you all are doing is breaking relationship. Maybe the world would be a better place if we stopped doing that.
This is an interesting article.
http://www.nonesoblind.org/blog/?p=1576
That’s a nice link lg – I think both sides have been guilty of terrible things this campaign… I wish we could all rise above it. I am guilty of getting into it myself and I have laughed, it’s fun and all but and I can’t say I will never do it again, but it is devisive.
I am so NOT getting into the middle of this one. I have my beliefs and whether someone wants to believe what I do or not is their choice. Discussion religion is one of those things that I learned a long time ago is fruitless. But I will say this, if you do choose to believe in God and he doesn’t exist you’ve lost nothing. If you don’t believe in God and he does exist, you’ve lost everything.
Well, let me present an alternate scenario. For the sake of this scenario, there is no god, this is the only life you get, and once it’s over you cease to exist. You live your whole life avoiding things that religion tells you are bad. You don’t drink, you don’t smoke, you don’t look at lascivious things, etc. Then you die and it’s over. You missed out on a lot of stuff, and now you’re done, and for what? This is why I don’t accept the “if you choose to believe and he doesn’t exist, you’ve lost nothing” argument.
Ok, but I’m not referring to the here and now, I’m talking about what comes after. But, but put in the context your speaking of, do the things you mention promote a healthy lifestyle? I’m not opposed to drinking, I like a glass of wine or a beer, but with moderation. We all know what the effects of smoking are, so that one’s not even worthy of debate. As for looking at lacivious things, I don’t have a valid answer other than there are people who become addicted to it and it does cause them problems in life. Does it promote a healthy mental attitude? I would think not. The problem with the examples you have given is they don’t really say much about the person who is a chain smoking lush who looks at porn. Is that the person you would want to be or hang out with?
Well I don’t drink or smoke but will you be mean and judge me for my porn?! T_T
No love.
I’ll judge you for the porn Nexus. But first, what kind is it?
LOL!! Witty Kurt, as always.. *sheesh*
You going to answer, wyrm? Enquiring minds want to know..
But which god do you choose? If you pick the Christian god and it was Odin all along you’ve failed just as badly as those who didn’t pick a god at all.
Until I see a bible that was not made by a man (or machine but that’s a whole other scary thing) I will continue to take it for what it is. A book of parables and rules that you may subscribe to but you do so IN FULL KNOWLEDGE that you are doing so. That book has been edited, translated, edited, translated, edited, ad infinitum. Those are the words of man, filtered by the will of man, printed on a manmade machine on manmade paper. It is a chronicle of the dissemination of radical social engineering. NOTHING MORE.
In retrospect, I wish I hadn’t said a word.
I had forgotten how difficult it is to have a reasonable and civilized conversation about God.
The root of this difficulty is surely a lack of reasonable people with civilized thoughts concerning the matter.
No, the problem isn’t a lack of civilized thoughts. The problem is trying to discuss an issue that nearly everyone has some form of opinion on in a messageboard format. Now if everyone was sitting down in a circle, it would probably be a little easier, but not much. As the saying goes, “Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool then to open it and remove all doubt.” I’m not saying you’re a fool, only that somethings are better kept private, if you know what I mean.
But if you’re a Christian you’re not supposed to keep your faith a secret either…
I agree, but would this be considered the proper forum? The Bible says there is a time and a season for all things. Having an honest discussion about faith is good, and yes, you do need to share that. But when people are already predisposed to what they believe in, typing messages won’t sway them (as we all well know by the discussion of politics around here.)
There may be people on the fence who are reading these posts, you never know, but I hear you.
Awwww, I thought I was being reasonable… T_T
Yep. Reasonable. Also a prick that only half read what I posted, but no worries.
I don’t mind if you’re a prick… so am I.. it’s all good… and for the most part it was a most enjoyable discussion.
If you are a Christian, you are “supposed to” strike down authoritarian religious doctrine, do good works, live a modest life, turn the other cheek and lead by example. If you are a Christian, you are not supposed to: vote (yes, it’s there , carry a gun or judge others. Sara Palin is NOT a Christian. Period. Sorry. I have read and reread the Bible and it’s pretty clear that these are the teachings of Jesus.
You would understand this if you have ever had the Bible used as weapon and an alibi for murder against one of your friends or attempted murder against you.
Wow, you have had some really really bad experiences, I’m so sorry to hear that… But, I don’t think that voting is not Christian, why do you say that?
*sigh* I wasn’t going to say anything either… But it was nice reading your posts!
Welcome to the Internet.
Also, it seems to me (though I could be wrong) that by “reasonable people with civilized thoughts,” you really mean “people who agree with me.”
Uh, no, but thanks a heap for that welcome, 15 years too late.
Was I being unreasonable too? I can’t think of when.
All the gods are up there wondering if someones gonna answer that damn fone!
It looks like the Picture was taken at the (former) VLA (Very Large Array) in New Mexico, USA. Looks like one of their dishes.
I’d hate to have to wash those dishes…
.. or pay the JetDry bill…
Correct, but it’s not “former” — it is very much still there and in operation, although it now often functions as one component of the Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA).
is that REALLY the most clever name they could come up with it? Seriously? What’s next, the GHBA? (Ginormously Huge Baseline Array)
They’re scientists, What do you expect? They don’t get out much. By Former, I meant that it’s no longer named the VLA
And they call it that for a reason.. it’s HUGE! If you want an idea, rent the move Contact with Jodie Foster. The have the VLBA (formerly VLA) in it.
God is something some humans need to believe in. However, if there is a God, I rather doubt we would be able to understand it’s intentions.
The Bible is a human document, written by humans, containing human wisdom and human nonsense.
This was took at the Very Large Array Outside of Socorro, NM
It’s me, Margret.
Who was it who said the further man explores, the further away God goes? Wasn’t that long ago it was accepted he was sitting just above the clouds.
I notice that God is a “he”. You must acknowledge that you, in your heart of hearts, think of God as a kindly father. In other words, you are limiting God to a set vision. Congratulations. You have proved my point. In fact, I have NEVER been given an argument on the nature of God that did not anthropomorphise “him” in some way and adding weight to my argument that if you can only think of God in terms of how human “he” is then you have NO IDEA of what omnipotence is and you think that YOU are the center of the universe. There can be no more selfish act than prayer. You have spent time, effort and energy doing nothing. You have ‘thought about” hoping something good would happen rather than doing something good. You have wasted time “thinking about” the possibility that someone else might do something good because you wished for it. You have congratulated yourself for the same, and, to top it off, you are sure that this will somehow make sure you will get to “Heaven”. Congratulations! Another child just starved to death. Another woman who was raped has to choose between damnation or living hell. Another homosexual was beaten to death or cast out by their parents for something they were never given a choice about.
Why, Oh why does God Move further away?
Disgust and disdain.
Sorry ceefax, this rant is not directed at you but is all about me.
I can’t help but react this way because of the I have been treated by the people who have said exactly what you said, at the same time they were killing my friends, shooting at me with REAL SHOTGUNS, and getting secret abortions while publicly chastising others for there choice of music.
Praise God.
Yikes! I got so “het up” that I have used poor grammar and spelling. It should read:
I can’t help but react this way because of the way I have been treated by people who have said exactly what you said, at the same time they were killing my friends, shooting at me with REAL SHOTGUNS, and getting secret abortions while publicly chastising others for their choice of music.
Praise God.
” if you can only think of God in terms of how human “he” is then you have NO IDEA of what omnipotence is and you think that YOU are the center of the universe.” – very well stated!!
*shudder* OMG! THNX ema.
Good luck with that, then.