Time for a warm hat
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Mmkay.. I like where this is going… moar plz?
Also, I enjoy the anchor replacing the iconic hammer and sickle.
I think it’s a Russian Marines issue hat. That was the logo on the old Soviet era ones anyway.
truer words were never spoken
Good thing Sarah Palin is running for VP. She grew up somewhat close to Russia, so she’ll know how to protect us.
*snicker*
I don’t think any candidate is ready for this fight. Hell, Putin is the kind of guy those cold war movies were made about. Good times… until we die.
To fight a cold war, allies are needed. Somehow I doubt the Republican tendency to dismiss Europe as a bunch of simpering weaklings would rally them to our banner. Ms. Palin does seem to be an experienced bridge-builder, though…
Don’t worry- Obama will be sucking Putin’s knob in a heartbeat ! No war- just caving in!
So when Russia roles right over them, they can just take care of it themselves.
There is a lot of love in this room.
I didn’t mean that to sound mean, I was just pointing out that US and Europe are both democratic countries and we would naturally need each other in the event of Soviet aggression. Europe doesn’t always have nice things to say about us either but it would not change that fact.
Sorry hun, I was looking at the thread overall, not trying to pick on you. You do have a good point though. People love to bad mouth us until they have an enemy at their gates.
Or an [insert natural disaster] in their backyard.
That too, good sir.
You are funny! I like your comments. I am a Canadian and believe me the French hate English Canada with a passion (except for those wonderful transfer payments from Alberta –whom they hate more than anyone!)
just like how we bad mouth the french for not joining in on a pointless war,
or how we bad mouth the candians for absolutly no reason.
Who’s bad mouthing Canadians here?
And the French, well, yeah……why not ?
They bad mouth us too.
Just the Quebecois, and let’s face it, the Quebecois hate everyone so it seems fair.
Try asking a Canadian if they’re American and they spit the dummy over it.
Man, that’s the truth too! The border guards will even refuse to speak english, even though they know you’re American. And speaking of bad mouthing Canada, I will absolutely never fly Air Canada again. I will say though that the Provinces east and west of Quebec have some really nice people.
Soviet Soviet Soviet
No moar soviets exist, comrade.
Niet! Niet, I say! One still exists… that guy with the hat up there.
Europe is a continent, which includes Russia, not a country.
And not all of the countries that are contained within Europe are democratic. Hell, we don’t even work with half the countries in Europe.
Isn’t Russia considered part of Asia?
Half of Russia is part of Europe, the other is part of Asia; it stretches all the way through the Eurasian continent.
Europe is NOT a country, Europe is a continent.
It is also a political block. Perhaps you’ve heard of the European Union? It’s pretty famous… I’m pretty sure it’s the only union in Europe that doesn’t go on strike every other week.
No Europe isn’t a political block it’s a geographical landmass. The European Union is a political block, but many of the countries in Europe aren’t part of it (i.e. Switzerland, Norway and oh yeah, Russia).
Europe is not a country.
“US and Europe are both democratic countries”, “Soviet aggression”? ok…
Palin’s husband seems to think that Alaska should be able to take care of itself. Or does secession only work until the evil Russians come knocking at the door?
Should be an interesting cold war. The old ideological struggles are over, so how will we demonize the opponent this time?
They touched our no-no places?
We touched theirs and they liked it?
Now the images are building up to give me damage. We could always go for the imperialistic evil angle but I can see that backfiring.
what about “God hates them” ?
I have the sad feeling that would probably work.
Well, they’re not “godless commies” anymore, and Russian Orthodox is pretty strong over there now. Then again, anyone who would be swayed by the “God hates them” argument isn’t going to pay undue attention to the facts, so I’d say you’re probably on the right track.
Which really, really depresses me… Depresses me to a point where I am going to sit in apathy and dick around on PK…
Like I always do. >_>
<_<
How about the fact that in Russian, the words for “peace” and “world” are homophones (they sound alike)? Every time one of the Soviet mouthpieces said “We want world peace”, they were laughing their asses off–they just want the world. Nothing has changed. Their leaders were and are evil, consider us their enemy, and are actively working against democracy and capitalism whenever and wherever possible.
I think they’ve adopted capitalism quite thoroughly and moved straight on into price-gouging and extortion. Witness their actions toward the EU. Russia wants to be the only game in town for energy supply to Europe, and they’re doing a pretty good job of shutting down potential competitors.
As for “evil”, let’s grow up, shall we? They’re self-interested, just as we are. They don’t subscribe to our set of morals, for sure, but they don’t have to. The only one bound by a code of morals is the person professing the code.
Um–Yeah, right !
Nicely, put sir. You are a mental giant.
Sarcasm.
“the coldwar actually happens” ???? Anytime there is an absence of a hot war and there are competing political and economic interests that are being pushed with the perceived threat of military intervention then you’re in a cold war. So we are already in and continue to be in a cold war in europe with the Russians. Case in point, Kosovo and Georgia.
Food for thought, just because I can. We all know that the majority of people are idiots the world over, right? Assuming that and that democracy is the majority rule, isn’t that rule by idiots? To further muddle things, we are in a representative democracy which is a republic/democracy hybrid. And since the majority picks their representatives, wouldn’t those representatives be the idiot’s choice.
Ergo, our rulers are idiots because we are idiots or at least the majority of us are. We complain about other countries being evil when we are playing world’s policeman while complaining when other countries voice opinion about what is happening in our own country. Which is idiocy when you look at it logically or at least hypocrisy.
So yes, perhaps our enemies are enemies because they seem to want what we want. We want to be in charge and are taking steps to enforce that notion around the world. Granted I understand that we haven’t publically taken the same extremes but are we as noble as we claim or is that just self delusion brought on by idiocy?
You’re getting cynical, Wyrm. But you’re not wrong.
I’m always cynical just less silly today.
No pie in the face then?
No and I would usually suggest something lewd in the face but I am just not feeling it today.
Damn, that is serious…
Be afraid because I am too apathetic to be afraid of the implications.
What if it was a *ahem* cream pie?
You offering to help make it? My my that is forward but alas I must turn it down. My fiancee’ and our girlfriend would be pissed…
The difference is we don’t want to be in charge, but we would prefer to have more democracy in the world. Democratic countries don’t generally attack other democracies. And, I wouldn’t say the marjority of any country are idiots, why is everyone on the left so cynical? You are always seeing a glass half empty, why?
because of people who believe in toxic rainbows… (though she clearly was a leftie, but still… frigtheningly stupid)
She?
She’s referring to the failvid about the “rainbow conspiracy”. You know–”What toxins are in our groundwater?”
Ah, something I never watched. Got it. I was being very confused and thank you for clarifying.
She was seeing a rainbow in the spray of her yard sprinkler and saying, “This didn’t happen when we were kids?” and blah blah blah. I forwarded the link to friends and said, “Watch, listen, and feel your IQ go up by 30 points!” Hee.
Crispy crap… That is dumb. Now I have a headache.
So she’s the reason everyone is so cynical!!
Now I get it.
I can feel the convolutions in my brain flattening out as I watch the video……
No that would be glue in your nose, homie.
You said it wouldn’t cause damage !
I lied.
Um, for one. I am a moderate, not a leftist. Two, see how advertising matters more than facts to most people as they don’t want to check their sources. Three, we want more democracies in place where we help pick the leader. Note where I said we pick the leader.
So my question to you is why does anybody who doesn’t immediately agree with you get painted as your enemy or as the “other” team. I could have sworn we were all in the same damn country (excluding those who constantly tell us otherwise) so shouldn’t we all be on the same team and try to talk to each other instead of attack each other with labels?
I’m an American moderate. I use the label moderate because people understand it better than me having to explain that I find both tons of flaws and then some good points in both parties. I hate the term independent as that should be a given in this country but we would rather divide ourselves and the term just reminds me of that frustrating fact.
I’m sorry
You can kick me around for a few lols for that, I knew you were a moderate… (but you were being cynical! n8 agreed with me!!)
Nah, you’re a sweetie. We’re cool, hun. All on the same team, despite the disagreement.
And you’re both right, I am a bit more cynical today. Perhaps I am just a bit irritable and I apologize but ya. I can’t really feel that I can refute my previous statement based on what I see in the world.
Like I said, you’re not wrong. But people aren’t idiots per se… they’re just uninformed and easily swayed by marketing and the “team sports” phenomenon. You counter disinformation with information, show people the truth to counter the smears, prove your point logically, try your best to stay out of the muck… people will generally come around after a while. That’s my hope, anyway.
The problem I have seen is that people choose team over facts. I have honestly wished that I could just take their records on stage and read them off. Then no ads in the world could save any of the players in the race from the truth.
Well, it’s just kind of easier that way sometimes. If one team usually supports the majority of the issues you are concerned with, then you may have to just swallow some of the things you don’t really like. I don’t think it means people are stupid though.
My choice in words were a bit harsh and I am sorry but I do see a ton of idiots around me. As for team playing, eh, I am seeing people just assume all the negatives about their candidate is false and just push forward with a group mentality.
I bite back the word idiot everytime I see people talk about voting Republican or Democrat because that is what they always do or it is “their” party…
Wyrm: look up the word “bifurcation”. It won’t so much help yourcycism, but it will at least explain what’s going on.
… I already understood that there was a schism so I could have done without the condescension. I am simply saying that perhaps we should be trying to do what is best for our country instead of what is best for our party.
Dude, you’re one of the last people I’d condescend. You were asking about the schism and I wanted to nudge you towards the term describing the logical fallacy that there must only be two responses to a given problem. Apologies if it seemed rude. I’m all for looking outside the binary system we seem ready to accept.
No worries, I am a cranky ass today so it is probably my fault. I understand the logical fallacy which is why the current bipartisan system frustrates me. I have little faith that we will see somebody outside the Dem/Rep system getting elected to the highest office anytime soon. I really hope I am wrong and my cynicism is unwarranted.
You’re correct, politics as team-sports is causing the ruination of this country. So many people are just interested in making sure their side wins, so they’ll overlook or perpetuate any statement that they see as helpful to that end, veracity be hanged.
I know I come across as hard-core leftist, but in truth I have a lot in common with small-c conservatives, and identified as such until a few years ago. My problem is that as soon as I started raising questions and objections, my erstwhile allies turned nasty. It’s an eye-opener, to be sure.
So much value is placed on being a team player that people start suppressing their dignity… they don’t mind being lied to, and because they deal in lies they assume that the other team is lying too; and all too often that’s true. We as Americans should give our loyalty to The Truth, not to McCain, nor Obama, nor to any politician.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but you started it.
“We as Americans should give our loyalty to The Truth, not to McCain, nor Obama, nor to any politician” – Very nicely stated!!
I dug it muchly myself.
I’m glad to hear it. The Truth has taken a beating lately, but at least it still has a few supporters.
n8, you and wyrm (I think for the most part ema and I are already on the same page with some minor differences) have perfectly outlined my political views. I’m neither a connie or a leftie, but wobbling down the center somewhere.
Ya, I mentioned you and ema being people I actually like talking on this site when it comes to opposing viewpoints.
There really ought to be a viable third party to accomodate folks like us. Or perhaps four parties. Split the evangelicals and fundamentalists out from the fiscal conservatives, and split the chavez/castro coddlers and world-workers-party types out from the moderate liberals. Take the left-overs and form up a party. We could call it “Reasonable People for a Better America.”
Radical moderates, guys.
The problem with making more parties is that the electoral votes would be completely hosed and nobody would ever win. Case in point, nowadays, when have you seen any independent win a presidential election. This is not a new thing. We are stuck with two parties until we find a way to break them.
Instant runoff voting would help.
Ya, the removal of the electoral college would be a good start. Make us all responsible for the votes.
Definitely. The electoral college is a historical relic whose time has gone.
I was especially fond of how they take our votes on advisement… So nice to be patronized.
I will say this, if the election was based on popular vote, Gore and Kerry both would probably have been elected. Not that I like either one, but realistically, this is how it should be and not based on someone ‘representing me’. Because the truth is, I don’t feel very represented by the Electoral College.
Ya, having somebody overrule my vote because of whatever reason never sits well with me. If the votes say one thing, that one things should be the result.
I still support the idea of a 5-party system with instant run-off voting. The five parties (Far left, center left, center, center right, far right) would allow peole to initially vote how they truly feel. Maybe there would be enough votes to nominate someone into office, but if not, the logical conclusion would be more centrists in office and more people at least pleased that one of their candidates made it into office, thus a happier populous.
I’m not discounting the validity of the Electoral College, but its design predated political parties. The idea was whoever got the most electoral votes is President. Whoever gets the next highest amount is VP. Maybe we ought to go back to this, eh? Even this would please more people in the end.
That’s crazy enough to work.
I’m liking it, Herb. Except the part where the 2nd place person becomes VP. Given the rancor in our elections, the president would always have to keep an eye on their VP lest a “tragic accident” occur.
Ya, that would be a problem. I had forgotten that detail since it is the end of the day.
n8: the Prez would still get to nominate the Sec’y of State, who would then become the next VP. You may take me down, but then my guy will take you down.
No. Secretary of State is 4th in line. Speaker of the House is third. Then it goes to the Cabinet in order of creation of the Department.
herb-You’ve just described the workings of the Soviet Politburo.
Ya, I find myself embracing a decent number of conservative ideals but I just can’t follow the crop of Republican candidates I have seen in my voting years. Clinton was the only president I actually liked and he was mostly considered a pervert but hell, I could get a job easily with him around. I would love to see a Republican do their thing or better yet, just get somebody who isn’t riding a party bandwagon.
We’ve become too embroiled in the game instead of the reality.
What I find is that Republican politicians have abandoned Conservative ideals. Oh sure, they say the right words during election season, but they don’t follow through. Once they get into office it’s all about cronyism and agendas. If there actually were a real conservative running, I’d probably go for them.
Still, I genuinely approve of Obama’s campaign and ideas, and think he’s the better candidate, so I have no problem giving him my full support. If anything, he will at least get the current crop of fakers out of power for a while.
The problem with Obama is that I think he is walking into a political trap in his own party. The Democrats in power aren’t about his message or ideals. They just want their chance at holding power to push their own agendas which are just as old as the Republican agenda. I really like Obama and want to believe him but I also realize that he isn’t going to be GOG God of Epic when/if he gets into office. He is going to have to deal with his own party and they are going to be just as much the problem as we consider the Republicans.
As for campaigning, is it just me or does the Republican party want to be our fire and brimstone preacher and the Democratic party wants to be our condescending “cool” dad?
I don’t think of them as a condescending cool dad. They are a kinda absent, Oh that’s nice, dear, sorta dad.
Hey! Democrats as Rorschach tests? So, who else wants to talk about their own fathers
;-0
*waits to see more responses* I would love to hear these.
My sentiments exactly and I have said this in the past. Regardless of WHO gets elected, it’s going to be a tough row to hoe. It isn’t really the President that effs things up, it’s Congress. I would love to see and end to the stranglehold the Republicans and Democrats have on our government.
Ya… If only. *sigh*
And you forgot to do the Democrats as your father Roschach test.
Without a doubt, Obama will face an uphill battle dealing with the entrenched players in his own party. (I’m looking at YOU, Pelosi!) I think he’s got the panache to make it happen, and the Old Guard is increasingly unpopular with the Democratic base anyway.
As for the Rorschach test… I see the Dems as George McFly, the Repubs as Biff. Here’s hoping Obama can get the Delorean up to 88 MPH!
I will admit that I lol’d. Nice reference. The Democratic Congress is more and more a bad joke.
LOL! McFly and Biff.. nice reference..
N8 & DWN–Stop it! You are being entirely too reasonable! Up to now I have disagreed with you both on almost everything, but here–can’t argue wit ya.
But I haven’t honestly changed. I just haven’t had the chance to properly lay out my full thoughts on the matter.
Forgive me, Rys. I’ll try to keep the civility to a minimum until the election is over.
Fine fine, I will beat people with a meat pole.
Logically speaking, it would be easier to get a third, fourth, or fifth party candidate elected at the Representative (and then Senate) level. The problem is, the party leadership decides committee seats in both houses of Congress. That would mean that these candidates from other parties would be given crappy committee seats, if they were given any at all. Because this is how the system runs, people would actually be kind of crazy to vote a third party for their local representatives. I am not saying this is a good thing, in fact I am pro-third parties, but it is the truth.
Which is why I tend to vote GOP. I am actually a libertarian, but if I want to see a minimum of my desired policies enacted, one of the Big Two is the only way it’s going to happen.
Besides, I like the Lib candidate–I’ve met him–but whatever else you can say about him, he’s . . . different.
My loyalty is to truthiness.
Colbert is a perceptive man.
So I noticed when he spoke with O’Reilly.
O’Reilly is one of those people who is technically on one’s side, one just wishes he wasn’t.
Ya, I find myself wanting to smack him… With blunt objects with sharp objects protruding through them.
LOL!
You can have one too to help with the beatings.
Smack him with a falafel.
A blunt falafel with sharp objects protruding? And lasers? I want LASERS!
Try a nice flail. you got the bluntness, but it also has the little spikey bits. Plus they’re just fun to smack things with.
We still need lasers on that flail.
Yay! We all live in an idiocracy, idiocracy, idiocracy….
DWN,
There is a big difference between democracy as a principle, which is what the US promotes, and democracy as a form of government–which latter, the Founding Fathers dismissed as, essentially, mob rule. As I read what you have said above, you seem to agree.
Russia has declared us one of THEIR three main enemies, along with China and, I believe, NATO. Likewise, China lists us so, along with Russia another entity. We’re always willing to have ‘em on our side; they demur.
N8,
You and I need further dialogue about the state of Russia, but let’s start with this. Did you know that property ownership, the cornerstone of capitalism, is forbidden in Russia? The State still holds rights to the land. They still do not have capitalism per se above the market-garden level. Their first oil billionaire is in jail, his company and assets having been seized and sold at kopeks on the ruble to Putin’s buddies in the former KGB. Once the overt totalitarian lid was taken off, the Russkiya Mafiya blossomed–with the tacit approval of the government. THAT’S where the extortion comes from, not from simple entrepreneurs.
Since you do not seem to believe in evil, you can hardly be expected to recognize it when confronted with it. That’s not meant to be personal, but totalitarians are not “self interested”; they mean us and the countries of the EU harm.
Hence why I said food for thought and I mentioned earlier that Putin was a real live version of a Cold War Movie Villain. I can recognize evil but I felt like being an ass too.
Worry not, I agree with you on pretty much all of what you posted. I shall be nice and assume it is true as I am not in the mood to google it up to check for errors like a bitchy teacher grading papers.
Thanks–though we often disagree, I’m enjoying the dialogue, and always pleasantly surprised when we DO agree.
I do like a little harmony in my life. That and sex but I will settle for just harmony in this instance.
Ugh, PK ate my post. So we get to wait.
Now see this is an interesting and important point here about recognizing evil and why I can’t get behine Obama. I don’t believe he really believes that evil exists and so how can I feel comfortable with him as commander in cheif? I don’t see our country as evil because we promote democracy, it is in the best interest of the world for more countries to have democracies because they are peaceful with each other. I do see evil in totalitarianism and fascist ideologies who war with democracies and with like governments as well. I would like to feel our leaders do to.
Though you could counter with the fact that Obama wants to bring us out of the Middle East which would actually give us an army to fight Russia with if it comes down to that. McCain is wanting to stay in there and would probably want to fight Russia too. I don’t see us doing well if we have to fight two different areas hardcore.
Just pondering a different angle, mind you.
Well, I don’t beleive McCain said he wants to stay there indefinitely, he was taking about a presense like we have in Germany or Japan since after the WWII. They are talking about taking out 8k from Iraq right now, but they will probably have to go to Afghanistan…
What was the number of years he said he wanted to stay there? I know he said something.
Well, whatever the number of years we needed to stay there, Obama would have had to do it too, we were pretty much committed as a country to see them through and not pull out leaving a huge massacre. Obama, no matter what he is saying now would not have been able to do that either. Seems to be under control now enough to begin talking about pulling troops out.
I had clever rebuttal commentary but my brain eated it.
lol! its that time of the afternoon!
Blah, dammit. I will just concede the point for now and let a fresher brain rebuttal.
The danger of your earlier post, ema, is that labeling a group as evildoesn’t merely paint with a broad brush: it picks a group of people up by their ankles and dips them into a bucket of paint. Same as I suggested to Wyrm, look up the word “bifurcation”. Afterward, perhaps, you could look into the concept of Othering.
Is it better to prepare for war? Or to prevent war?
Herb, I don’t paint them with the evil brush, it is their own actions that do that. They are “othering” themselves. Also, I think it is good to be prepared for any thing that could endanger us or our allies and some things you cannot prevent. All the peace talks in the world sometimes don’t help.
“I have seen the enemy and he is us.”
Do me a favor: place yourself in the shoes of one of these Evildoers. Do you rub your hands together and chuckle insanely at the devilishness of your plan? Or do you genuinely believe what you’re doing is for the betterment of those around you? Are you acting in such a way as to instill your enemies with fear and terror? Or are you reacting to a previous slight, real or imagined?
The world ain’t nothing but gray, sweetie. There is no way to seperate Us from Them on an action/reaction level. Even in this “War on Terror”, we acidentally shell a village — or we do so deliberately, killing thirty to stop six — and to those uninvolved in the conflict, what they see is an attack on their livelihood, death destruction and terror rained down upon them by the great Evil. Torture, murder, rape, pillaging… all those things that make Them so evil are the same things (like it or not) that We do.
And we’re to stop this by continuing it?
What is the answer? I would love to have peace as I’m sure most sane people do but the fact that innocents are killed while pursuing evil is not the fault of the ones pursuing evil. I also know that the enemy uses the innocent to stop us which is heinous but not our fault. I also don’t believe that we torture, murder and rape or pillage, if a rogue individual has done that in that past they are punished. Can you say that for our enemies? Was anyone punished for the beheading videos? I honestly couldn’t place myself in their shoes, because I would want to be on our side if I was and I would do whatever I could to get over here.
You’re about one third right. “Othering” is what the Islamofascists do. They’ve been at it for 3,500 years of recorded history–long before “We” came upon the scene.
As far as the US goes, think back to the Marine Hymn–” . . . to the shores of Tripoli . . . “–ever since They began kidnapping our ships’ crews and holding them for ransom. “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.” That’s where that came from.
The First Crusade was the response to a cry for help from Christian communities in the eastern Mediterranean who were being harassed (read: slaughtered) by the MUSLIM Seljuk Turks. The Turks were exacting tribute in the form of blood or treasure–often both–from anyone else in their territory who Wasn’t One Of Them.
We are engaged in the Fourth World War, which will not end until These People have been persuaded that it’s really not a good idea to mess with those who do not subscribe to their world view, and don’t want to.
“A fanatic is someone who won’t change their mind, and won’t change the subject.” We are attempting to change their minds–if necessary, by killing enough of those who choose to take up arms against us that they are no longer a significant threat.
Check your history–the Persians/Arabs/Muslims have almost invariably attacked first, “in the name of God”. (But they’re not Christians, so I guess that makes it okay.)
Great. If they want to start something, we’ll finish it. I thank God that we have a President and a candidate who have the vision and the will to protect 300 million of the American people from your precious “Others”.
The above was directed to Herb.
And again to Herb,
” . . . place yourself in the shoes of one of these Evildoers. Do you rub your hands together and chuckle insanely at the devilishness of your plan? Or do you genuinely believe what you’re doing is for the betterment of those around you? . . . ”
These People are doing NOTHING for the betterment of ANYONE. You keep making the mistake of assuming that you know what is in other peoples’ minds, or that they think anything like you do.
Did you not see the videos of Palestinians dancing in the streets when Jews–any Jews–are killed? The exuberance with which the bodies of American servicemen were dragged through the streets after ‘Blackhawk Down’? Or everywhere in the Middle East when the Trade Towers came down?
I do not assert that these people are insane; but their worldview is such a difference that we CANNOT coexist with those who place no value on human life, who not only will die for their cause, but who will slaughter their own women and children in hopes of blaming it on Others? (That wuold be us.) They are as inexorable as the aliens in “Independence Day” who, when asked what they wanted the human race to do, answered “Die”.
I really worry about someone who cannot see that there is such a thing as Good and Evil, that WE are working for the greater good, and that it is going to take a long time to achieve it.
{“Othering” is what the Islamofascists do.}
That’s great. I’d LOL if it weren’t so depressing. “Name calling is the scumbag money-grubbing child-molesting republicans do” (mutatis mutandis).
Laying out the complex history of the Crusades and subsequent engagments in the Middle East to someone like you would be as pointless as teaching a fish to whistle; suffice to say that in their cultural infancy, the Muslims partnered with the Christians against the evil Jews, then later joined with the Jews to combat the crusading Christians, and are now on their own against the tag team of Christian and Jew.
herb, I know you really do believe in the good in everyone. That’s admirable and I understand where you are coming from. But everyone is free to chose which side they want to be on, and you can’t do much about it if they chose evil. There are consequences for all our actions. Let’s say we all believe everyone deserves a good life and to be protected, so what do we do with the ones that decide they don’t believe that and are going to put a stop to it?
Herb,
I had made a decision not to get personal with you; apparently you’ve decided to descend to the level of name calling which you claim to descry.
I had even made an earlier decision not to dialogue with you at all, as you appear delusional when you try to tell us what is in Bush’s and others’ minds.
History is ALL I read these days. I have just finished reading four histories of Western civilization, three of China (with two in the pipeline), and a book called “The Silk Road”, which covers the cultures from Rome to China for the last 4,500 years. I may not have the breadth of knowledge you do (though I might), but I am a whole lot more current than you are, and becoming more so by the day.
Which has nothing to do with your response–which has nothing to do with my post. You often respond, but you NEVER answer any of my points because you can’t. Liberalism of your stripe is, in fact, a mental disorder, because it denies reality and historical fact. Save your typing for the time when you can FACTUALLY answer even a SINGLE point that I raise.
R – you seem like a very interesting person, and I think you know I agree with you mostly, but you may want to chill out a bit. We are all here mainly to have a nice time chatting, not change the world, and especially not if you drive someone away from your point of view. I hope I don’t offend you by saying that, anyway…
Shoot. I only drink half a cup a day as it is . . .
Rys: Re: “Did you not see the videos of Palestinians dancing in the streets when Jews–any Jews–are killed? The exuberance with which the bodies of American servicemen were dragged through the streets after ‘Blackhawk Down’?”
What did you expect from them, long faces? They’re fighting the mightiest nation on earth and its proxy. Any victory they score, they’re going to celebrate. That doesn’t make them evil, it just makes them our foe. Trying to divide the world neatly into Good and Evil is a foolish, pointless endeavor.
n8: no one EVER dances in the street when we retaliate. They love war and death. Now, I do agree they are used as pawns and stirred up by rich and powerful in their countries that want to see us defeated. I feel sorry for them more than anything.
Regarding the dancing in the streets: by golly you’re right. People that think we’re beasts celebrated when we got ours. Kind of.. waitaminnit.. holy crap.. just like a number of Americans I’ve seen celebrate every time we shell a village to rubble or a Mexican gets shot for the crime of being a Mexican. Nothing speaks of American passion and tolerance like a college friend having a rifle pulled on him by a group of drunk rednecks because he looks Arab.
Herb, you have NEVER seen anything like that, please tell the truth. And if there is some truth in what you say, it is a very very tiny minority of people and you know it.
Damn. I’ve two posts queued. One’s big; one’s not so big.
As I click [add comment], possibly three.
Forgive to soon-sudden appearance of my posts. The Web-goblins are playing tricks.
ema– how are the small groups of sociopathic celebrants I’ve seen any different from the ones you’ve seen?
Besides the sheer number of participants, their “governments” condone and approve of that kind of thing while ours dissapproves and may even jail people for that kind of thing if anyone is killed, harmed or property destroyed.
H-”Small groups”, my ass. The streets are filled with these sociopathic celebrants.
E-This stuff is not only condoned; in Iran, it is often mandated by the government, elsewhere (Pakistan, Palestine) by the clergy. Great point abou tOur Side, too.
Do you have proof that that behavior is mandated by law? I’m genuinely curious, as I’ve not heard that.
For the record, the Israelis do just as much celebrating when they claim a victory against the Palestineans as Palestineans do when they have their own victory. We just don’t see it here because we back Israel.
H-Not by law, per se, but when a totalitarian government communicates, in whatever way it chooses, that it needs masses of people in the streets with signs and chanting “Death to America” for the cameras, it happens.
I always find this very simple. It isn’t a matter of good or evil as life is shades of gray. We are infidels and they are on jihad. I am glad we sorted out that is all perspective. However, the discussion is more or less verbal masturbation. We have our crimes and they have theirs. Unfortunately, they aren’t negotiating and if they are, please link me. If they are not negotiating and fighting instead, we have to fight as well. I am not going to say fight back as who started it doesn’t matter anymore. We just need it to end. It is a selfish and horrible perspective to be sure but it is the only inevitable conclusion.
I believe in the good in people but I have seen more evidence to the apathy in people. I won’t say evil, I won’t dignify the concept of monolithic evil outside of a fictional storyline.
The presence of assholes over here does not stop the presence of assholes over there. As for rednecks with guns, they were killing blacks and other minorities long before there was a war in Iraq so I can’t accept that as reason to stop a war dead in its tracks when the enemy is still fighting.
I want a better place for my kids. I want the war over, hell I wish we could have found a better way. I don’t trust McCain since his ideas are no different than what got us there. But I don’t believe we can just believe in the good of others and back off.
Ugh, I think I somehow left my point behind so I will have to stop my rant there and apologize for its lack of completion. Hopefully some use can still be garnered from it.
I think your first paragraph addressed it adequately.
Glad we could come to an accord.
I agree completely, Wyrm. I prefer thinking of things hear as an ideological sparring match. As I said above, I consider myself an idealist, and am always let down by the actions of people over the world; Ryszard strikes me as more a dark pragmatist: if the world isn’t going to be a great place, then any action owever minor to improve it is a victory over the Chaos. I respect him for it, too, even if I don’t agree with him.
Just don’t knock masturbation in any of its form.
Ya, I don’t mind learning even if it seems like I am fighting it every step of the way. I want to know because I understand it not because I am fed the idea. If there is challenge to my thinking, I want to confront so I know if I am right or not. If not, I learn, if I am right for whatever reason, I can get that mild ego stroke to help take the edge off the day we all so desperately need.
Herb,
“Ryszard strikes me as more a dark pragmatist: if the world isn’t going to be a great place, then any action owever minor to improve it is a victory over the Chaos. I respect him for it, too, even if I don’t agree with him.”
I missed that earlier, but I appreciate it. A lot.
Tx, R.
“Though you could counter with the fact that Obama wants to bring us out of the Middle East which would actually give us an army to fight Russia with if it comes down to that. McCain is wanting to stay in there and would probably want to fight Russia too. I don’t see us doing well if we have to fight two different areas hardcore.
Just pondering a different angle, mind you.”
DWN-We all agree that we are not given all the information by our governments. You may or may not agree that governments do things among themselves which run counter to their public stands. (French President Chirac was always vocally against us, but French intelligence usually cooperated with us.) I may argue the case elsewhere that I have the wherewithal to infer more from the information that we do get publicly. But something just occurred to me which you may want to consider.
(1) We have many reasons for being in Iraq. One is to keep the baddies from coming *here*; seems to be working. (2) Russia can’t afford to concentrate their forces against the West; their entire southern border, with the meaningless exception of Mongolia, is comprised of enemies; and, with the exception of China, *Muslim* enemies, who pose just as great a threat to Russia as they do to anyone else. (3) By extension, we are doing the civilized world (but particularly Russia) a favor by drawing fire away from the Americas, Europe, and most of Africa and Asia.
“Nations do not have friends or enemies. They have interests.” Come to think of it, even China benefits. They too have extensive borders with Muslim countries, as well as a substantial Muslim minority of their own. Estimates range from 27 to *100 million* (has to do with their definition of a minority).
Well that is all good but I am not seeing how it is in our interests to be there anymore to protect other nations when it is just putting us in debt to them and not the other way around.
So we are paying them to do a favor for… them?
I do like to talk, don’t I?
Okay, short version: What is it worth to Russia and China for us to remain engaged with the worst elements of Islam in Iraq and Afghanistan, rather than saying, “Right, lads, run along to your home countries and attack the *other* Great Satans”? As much we are disliked, they also dislike those countries for being officially godless. (To the extent that they need a reason.)
So basically we are doing them the favor of bleeding ourselves dry so they don’t have to fight so when they finally want to get rid of us, we won’t put up a struggle. Excellent. wait, what?
I already know what is in it for them, I am talking about us. I don’t live in China or Russia so their feelings aren’t high on my list of things to give a damn about. I will care about them when our economy isn’t shit.
Forgive my late response, I had a ton of errands to run after work. I’m not in any way claiming that Russia is a free-market economy. They are closer to a national-level mafia, in my opinion. That said, if you look at the lives of everyday Moscovites, you’ll find that they driving cars, going to malls, enjoyying tea in tea shops just as we do in Starbucks. They may not own land, but they have disposable income and things upon which to spend it. This is a far cry from the bread & toilet paper queues so common around the fall of the wall.
This is what I mean when I say that capitalism has won. They don’t practice it in the same form that we do, but they do practice it. China does as well, for that matter.
Ugh. -They’re- driving cars. I hate how Firefox renders the big comment-entry text box on this site. Off to the grammar gulag with me…
They’ve already tried that with the Georgian fiasco. They’ve leveled the moral high ground, so that doesn’t work anymore.
Doesn’t he represent the Uber-Capitalist wing of Russian society?
Is it just me or does his face look really strange in this picture?
no air brushing this time?
Think the picture’s been super sharpened. The pixels are standing out super clear in this cheeks and chin >_>
Pixels are scared of Putin… standing at attention…
It may be scarring from frostbite. He wasn’t in The Great War, and wasn’t likely in the Gulag, but it is still a common phenomenon among Russians.
I’m a fan of the lengthy conversations that go on in comment threads. Seriously, it really makes my day. =D
And the sharpiness of this picture made it even more my day. Heh.
So your heaven would be Photoshop discussion boards??
Whoa… his eyes are really shiny and blue. And his hat is awesome, I want one.
One comment for today’s large discussion.
-Evil is a perspective.
I thought it was “Evil is absolute”?
That might be your perspective, but it isn’t mine.
Actually, I agree with you. I was just throwing commments around in a troll like fashion.
Evil is a label, as is Good. Both are terms used to frame a debate or a faction, to the labeler’s advantage. What must be recognized is that there is no objectivity about either label; both are relative to point-of-view.
Life is shades of gray. To oversimplify and make things black or white just makes your options limited in the ability to understand. Since knowledge is power and comes from understanding, oversimplifying limits your power while making your ignorance limitless.
Greetings from Ukraine. Really enjoyed reading comments. Existence of people saying that “non-democratic countries are EVIL” makes me sure that 3d world war is inevitable. (Sorry for my engRish)
No, it’s the non-Democratic countries that want to see the demise of the U.S. that will start WWIII. There are plenty of non-Democratic countries that the U.S. has diplomatic ties with.
Oh, and welcome!!
hi)) i wasn’t talking about US interrelations, but about ema’s post, and her words about “non-democratic countries attacking other countries” and so on. For me is a big question, how this two things, “non-democracy” and “evilness”, are conected? And was surprised actually, by amount of people having so ramantic vision democracy and politics in general.
A 3D world war? That’s way better than 2D.
Hey, why not have the countries that are having a dispute play some WoW to determine who’s stonger? hehe
Because then China and South Korea would own the world.
Ni hao?
Point taken, blast… I must bone up on my gaming skills… THE FREE WORLD DEPENDS ON IT!!!
Otherwise, it’s ” Sy Chin”!
my typing sucks))))
Greetings Guybrush, I am more afraid that people believe that good and evil are merely a perspective or a label. If we can’t all agree as fellow humans on a definition of what is good and what is evil, how can we ever hope to have peace in the world? There would be no judgement, there would be no punishment for any action and then we would revert back to “survival of the fittest” and innocents would suffer. Welcome and nice to have your perspective on the subject!
Good God, now i’ve read all the comments, i must admire, that things are a lot worse than i expected. Even if most common opinion on this topic was something like “survival of the fittest” i’d understnd that, but talking about “evil side and good side”…. this so weird, not to say stupid… And by calling Russia communist country you really make me laugh, you can’t even imagine how far is this from the point. By the way, Russia and China are great friends now (in a political way of course, they just need each other now).. While reading, clearly imagined Putin with bottle of vodka and white bear saying to press “USA, China, and NATO ar mai vorst enemyz nau” Not funny, actually i’m pretty scared of what is going to be a result of Russian and USA propaganda…
. . . “USA, China, and NATO ar mai vorst enemyz nau”
Welcome to the forum. I’m not sure how old you are or how much history you know, but here is what my posts were based upon.
The phrase was “main enemy” (glavny protivnik?). I heard it in an interview with a defector who had been a member of the KGB, then of the post-Soviet FSB. (I was driving at the time and unable to write down the man’s name, although I believe it was Oleg Gordievsky, aka “Comrade G”.)
Who one’s “main enemies” are is not something any Russian official would announce. The point I meant to make is that the Russian Federation has not changed in that way from the USSR, and that it is not my opinion.
Might have worked better w/ Stalin, but still funny.:)
His eyes are gorgeous!
He looks very cute in that hat. I’d like a hat sorta like that, he could keep the USSR navy carp though. It’s totally my fantasy to kiss him- which would totally be funny because I’m taller than he is.